August Schuler Suhl .45-70 s/s

[mikesheree]

Just bought one of these on Guns Int’l yesterday. Anyone have any experience with this firearm?

 

[PerH]

Schüler, Richard and the August Schüler Co.

Richard Schüler and the August Schüler Co. of Suhl The German Gun Collectors Association has a August Schüler catalog reprint available for purchase. Click here to go to their site and to view what they have to offer. By Larry B. Schuknecht While there are several fine magazine articles...

www.germanhuntingguns.com

 

[Red Leg]

Schuler made outstanding firearms, particularly those with the Hercules lock. However, I have never heard of one in 45-70 ......

I found it over at GI. I am not sure the name on this rifle is the real thing - the engraving is very crude. It looks like it may have been an inset into the rib? In any case, it is not a Hercules but is a standard A&D boxlock (maybe even a shotgun action?) and looks to have been fairly heavily reworked. For instance it originally would not have had a blued action, and there are signs of pretty extensive buffing. The checkering is unusual, even wrong, for a rifle of that period - particularly the panel behind the action. The cross bolt is not seated when the action is closed. Could just need a cleaning or it may be a spring issue. There seems to be a thin visible gap in the solder at the muzzle. You need to hold the barrels by the forend hook and tap with them with a wooden mallet or dowel. They should ring like a bell. If they "clunk," then the solder has failed. I also unsure what I see with the face of the third fastener. Is that blued over damage or corrosion? Perhaps @rookhawk can weigh in.

Does this seller have a return policy if the rifle has serious issues?

 

[mikesheree]

Thank you for your insight. I will inspect it carefully. There is a 3 day return.

 

[mikesheree]

Just had another negative comment on this piece. Purchase cancelled. Thanks all.

 

[Red Leg]

Just had another negative comment on this piece. Purchase cancelled. Thanks all.

I am so glad you could cancel the purchase.

I try never to disparage someone's acquisition, particularly should they be stuck with it. But, I can now be more direct. I am 99.9% certain this is a faked Schuler double rifle. The name and caliber engraving looks like it was done with a modern electronic tool - and not very well done at that. The assembler almost certainly grafted in a new piece of steel behind the rear sight. I would bet real money that is actually a shotgun action. It has been heavily buffed and the screw slots enlarged to clean them up. Judging by the oil soaked head and gaps at the action, I would guess that is the original shotgun butt stock, and he cleaned up the checkering and added the crude patterns at the head. The third fastener is clearly damaged or badly corroded which explains why the cross bolt doesn't fit properly. If you closely at the profile photo, I think one can see the sleeving lines from attaching rifle barrels. Finally, no Schuler ever left the bench with barrel soldering that crudely finished. And finally, an original 45/70? Possible, but an awfully rare thing.

You dodged a bullet.

 

[mikesheree]

Gentlemen ( and ladies?), this expertise is why i am here. I can’t look at a picture and riddle out as much as y’all can. That’s for sure!

 

[rookhawk]

I'm a friendly but blunt person.

This dealer has sold a number of counterfeit guns. This one is a counterfeit gun.

It was not made by August Schuler. It was not a double rifle. It was a bare-bones German (most likely) shotgun worth $600 that had double rifle barrels made and was spuriously engraved.

 

[mikesheree]

It DID sound too good to be true!

 

[rookhawk]

This particular seller whom I do not know nor have I dealt with is highly problematic.

On one hand, they show their services on their website that indicate world-class expertise in double rifles. (Not being arrogant, but I know about all of the world class experts in this field and I've never heard of them)

On the other hand, they have repeatedly sold counterfeit guns (that's a concrete statement I would defend easily in a libel/slander claim...they are fakes in many cases). In other similar cases, they are authentic guns with dodgy or deceptive alterations in caliber that if original would make the guns worth 10x.

So best-case they are naive sellers that know-nothing and are getting scammed themselves, and worst-case they are knowingly engaging in deceptive practices that defraud the customer.

Harsh words in either case, but I will stake my name on it being option A or B. The guns speak for themselves very clearly.

Anytime a reader wants a double rifle and they buy a cheap one, you are getting the near zero-value gun you deserve. There are no shortcuts in fine guns and especially at the lowest quartile of price. When people call me each week wanting to buy a first double rifle, 90% of the time I convince them to buy a world-class magazine rifle for less money and 10% of the time I convince them to double or triple their double rifle budget to get a "Safe buy" choice. It's nearly black-and-white either/or.

 

[mikesheree]

Indeed. The only doubles i have purchased were new, Rizzini rhino express .416 and Heym 26B 9.3 x 74R and both were fine. I should stick to new or rely on good folks like y’all if i am looking at anything used. I was mesmerized by the .45-70 aspect/uniqueness.
Y’all really pulled my chestnuts out of the fire on this one.

 

[mikesheree]

Well folks, since I flashed my ass so naively with this almost-purchase- - - does anyone, to your knowledge, make a quality s/s .45-70? I’m not a big fan of o/u which rules out the Heym. I liked the Rizzini but it became a novelty. I’m 72 and stuck in FL so now I hunt big hogs every 3-4 weeks. Shot enough of them with the .416 to convince myself 1) it works WELL, 2) it’s fun and 3) hogs don’t seem to like it . But time to move on. My other hog go to’s are now tungsten buckshot and BIG pistols on dog hunts. Traditional rifles (Merkel k5 (.308) and k3 (.243) and Blaser k95 (.270 and 7 x 65R) and blaser R8’s (.300 WM & .375 H&H) for stand/stalk hunting or night thermal hunts. Had a T/C in .45-70 and i love the cartridge. I just had a pipe dream of a s/s 45-70. Oh well…

 

[rookhawk]

@mikesheree not trying to burst bubbles, but why do you want a 45-70?

I like that they are rimmed, but I hate the fact they have so, so many iterations that their speed/pressure/fps vary from brand to brand dramatically. It's a huge pain in the ass to have one in a double rifle.

If you want a 45-70 equivalent power double rifle for affordable money, the 9.3x74r has loads of choices and is a wonderful caliber. On the smaller end, 303 British had many in prior generations and isn't bad, but may be pricey. On the newer end as in the last 100 years and quite common, 8x57 rimmed mauser (8x57JR or 8x57JRS) exists in many brands that is a wonderful cartridge that is easy to load and feed.

 

[mikesheree]

It is more the “idea” of the s/s and the cartridge. I’m (perhaps stupidly) not concerned with what works best, most cost effective, etc. And, you are spot on. I love the 9.3x74r. My dream Blaser BD14 (coming) is 20ga/9.3x74r/.22 Hornet.
There is just some fascination with that big, fat, slow, heavy lip-stick tube cartridge that enthralls me. And, as pathetic as this sounds, I would probably only be using the .45-70 in the close-in brush gun situations with the dogs just like the big pistols or shotguns.
Hell guys, I now have to vicariously do my safari’s on FL swamp/pine with my dream guns.
AND, I can also attest that hog really dislike the 9.3!
As an aside, and i don’t know if this is kosher, but i am selling a boat load of .458 wm and .416 Rigby now on G.B. penny auction. It might go cheap. I’m an old retired doc and not in it for profit. My kids won’t want to inherit it.

 

[rookhawk]

It is more the “idea” of the s/s and the cartridge. I’m (perhaps stupidly) not concerned with what works best, most cost effective, etc. And, you are spot on. I love the 9.3x74r. My dream Blaser BD14 (coming) is 20ga/9.3x74r/.22 Hornet.
There is just some fascination with that big, fat, slow, heavy lip-stick tube cartridge that enthralls me. And, as pathetic as this sounds, I would probably only be using the .45-70 in the close-in brush gun situations with the dogs just like the big pistols or shotguns.
Hell guys, I now have to vicariously do my safari’s on FL swamp/pine with my dream guns.
AND, I can also attest that hog really dislike the 9.3!
As an aside, and i don’t know if this is kosher, but i am selling a boat load of .458 wm and .416 Rigby now on G.B. penny auction. It might go cheap. I’m an old retired doc and not in it for profit. My kids won’t want to inherit it.

@mikesheree I respect that. You have to remember, I have my biases and its really about "tradition", "utility", and "resaleability" if I choose to upgrade later on.

The 45-70 double rifle is weak on tradition and you will lose your shirt if you try to sell it. But that doesn't mean your wrong for wanting one. I was just trying to pivot you to options with strong demand and wide appeal in the realm of double rifles.

In other "weirdo" double rifle calibers, I've seen a few 30-40 krag over the years, another rimmed cartridge that has been shoe horned into double rifles. 35 Winchester was another fairly common one in Belgian, Ferlach, and Suhl double rifles that didn't break the bank on costs.

 

[mikesheree]

That is where I am blessed and fortunate. Tradition/gut is #1, 2 and 2 1/2. #3 is what I can do to a big ass boar hog!

 

[ay2626]

@mikesheree if you are ok with a hammer double you might want to look into the Pedersoli Kodiak in 45-70. New they are going for about $6k. Used anywhere from $3500 to $5000 depending on condition. I have one and I find it to be a nice quality gun.

 

[mikesheree]

@mikesheree if you are ok with a hammer double you might want to look into the Pedersoli Kodiak in 45-70. New they are going for about $6k. Used anywhere from $3500 to $5000 depending on condition. I have one and I find it to be a nice quality gun.

thanks ay

 

[SFRanger7GP]

A Buddy of mine bought a Sabatti SxS in 45-70. He is happy with it.

Safe hunting

 

[Woodcarver]

Well folks, since I flashed my ass so naively with this almost-purchase- - - does anyone, to your knowledge, make a quality s/s .45-70? I’m not a big fan of o/u which rules out the Heym. I liked the Rizzini but it became a novelty. I’m 72 and stuck in FL so now I hunt big hogs every 3-4 weeks. Shot enough of them with the .416 to convince myself 1) it works WELL, 2) it’s fun and 3) hogs don’t seem to like it . But time to move on. My other hog go to’s are now tungsten buckshot and BIG pistols on dog hunts. Traditional rifles (Merkel k5 (.308) and k3 (.243) and Blaser k95 (.270 and 7 x 65R) and blaser R8’s (.300 WM & .375 H&H) for stand/stalk hunting or night thermal hunts. Had a T/C in .45-70 and i love the cartridge. I just had a pipe dream of a s/s 45-70. Oh well…

Somebody has a Pedersoli MkIV listed in the classifieds now at a good price. I have one, and have really enjoyed it. Pedersoli does a good job on fit and finish for the money.