Barrel advice 400 H&H

[Pheroze]

I am converting a Brno 602 for this project, and I am a bit overwhelmed by the barrel design. I didn't realize that there were so many parameters to it!

Contour and twist are the issues just now. But, also the number of grooves is an option.

I am thinking a heavier barrel will help with pointing and muzzle flip, but how heavy is too much? I am thinking a 24" barrel.

I am totally in the dark as to how to consider twist and grooves

At the end of the day I will heed my gunsmith's recommendation. But, I do not want to do so blindly!

I am wondering if anyone has any advice on these parameters? Or, is there a reference text I could read to learn about the subtleties of these considerations?

Thanks.

 

[Shootist43]

This thread could wind up being a "teachable moment" for most of us. My guess is that it is a function of the size and depth of the groove. The first place I'd start my research would be with the "technical" section of the major bullet manufacturers to see if there is some consensus of opinion. Then I'd talk to some of the barrel manufacturers to see what they had to say. I know that there is a formula for determining the minimum twist rate but not necessarily the maximum twist rate for any caliber and bullet weight. I believe I saw it on AH about 2 years ago when I was considering having my 35 Whelen built.

You always seem to have some interesting projects going on. Let alone starting new ones before the ongoing projects are finished. What a wonderful affliction you have.

 

[Pheroze]

Thanks,

I credit this website for stoking my curiosity! There is such an incredible amount of know-how here that it is inspiring. These two projects are kinda related in that they involve conversions of Brno rifles in a small way. My 308 NM is completed and on its way to me

Ultimately, I am going to restock both with a custom stock But, the 400 will be my first foray into the world of custom stocks. It's surprising how sexy a blank of walnut is...

The contour seems to be where my discretion plays the largest part - how heavy and what shape? I believe shape is about esthetics (why a Palma barrel? why octagonal, taper etc? no idea) But, the weight and length will be a factor on how comfortable this rifle is to shoot. My 375 H&H sports a 22" barrel which points like a shot gun. But, it is a very heavy barrel and I think that helps. My 30-06 has a light barrel at 22" and is actually not as comfortable to shoot as my 375. My thinking is an inch or two with a heavy contour will actually make the 400 more shootable.

What I found interesting on the web is that the number of grooves may have an effect on velocity - fewer groves seem to retard the velocity (friction with large lands?) I am settling on 5 groves as being a good idea, but this, and twist rate, are probably where science needs to be followed and not esthetics.

 

[Shootist43]

When you start talking about 40 cal. and up a little extra weight is a good thing. A 24" heavy barrel is going to be a lot more pleasant to shoot than a shorter slimmer barrel. My 416 Rigby Ruger No. 1 weighs 11.5 lbs. believe me, I know when I've squeezed the trigger.

 

[Heeler75]

Twist rate: 1:14 (same as .416)
Barrel contour: I'd find something in .416 Rigby or .416 Remington to pattern off of.
Barrel length: 23" or 24".

Depending on how much 'meat' is on the barrel of your 375 H&H, you might be able to copy that contour and use it.

 

[Pheroze]

Twist rate: 1:14 (same as .416)
Barrel contour: I'd find something in .416 Rigby or .416 Remington to pattern off of.
Barrel length: 23" or 24".

Depending on how much 'meat' is on the barrel of your 375 H&H, you might be able to copy that contour and use it.

The lightest bullet for it will be 300gr. I think the same applies for the 416, thanks!

Any advantage going with8 groves vs 5 etc?

 

[Bullthrower338]

You might give Dan Lilja a call up in plains Montana. He is one of the smartest I know on the subject.
Riflebarrels.com

 

[Heeler75]

I need to correct myself. I looked at Pac-Nor's website and they chamber for the 400 H&H - they will also do a prefit BRNO barrel (probably short-chambered).

Anyway, they mention for a .411" groove diameter a twist of 1:16 and 8-groove barrel.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Pac-Nor and Lilja are excellent barrels. I agree with the post recommending talking to them. After you give them a description of the bullets you plan on shooting and what type of hunting you'll be doing, they'll be able to give you a best practice workup and recommend the best twist and contour.
My .02 on your choice for contour would be a #4, #5 or Sendero and twist dependent on bullet length and weight.

Edit: Just checked Lilja's website. They do not make a .411 barrel. Checked Kreiger, Bartlein, Brux and Broughton.
No .411 barrels there either. You may be limited to a Pac-Nor. The last one I ordered from them, a .17 three groove featherweight, took three months for delivery. That would be considered lightning fast.

 

[Pheroze]

I need to correct myself. I looked at Pac-Nor's website and they chamber for the 400 H&H - they will also do a prefit BRNO barrel (probably short-chambered).

Anyway, they mention for a .411" groove diameter a twist of 1:16 and 8-groove barrel.

Very interesting twist rate. I wonder why it is slower that a 416?

We were trying to work with Benchmark barrels, but I believe Pac-Nor have a very good reputation.

 

[tarbe]

Personally, I'd do a 1 in 14 before I'd do a 1 in 16.

Stability in the air is one thing, but you want stability in the meat, too.

I'd always err on the faster side of the twist vs slower....within reason of course.

You want to optimize with the 400gr bullet, I assume?

 

[ScottG]

It's surprising how sexy a blank of walnut is...

Like a beautiful woman we like them all, but there are those that you are drawn to more than others.

 

[Pheroze]

You want to optimize with the 400gr bullet, I assume?

Interesting question: I think standard would be 400 gr. But, Mr. Van der Walt suggested in Dangerous Game Cartridges that the 370 gr may be a more suitable weight. CEB and North Forks both have offerings in that weight. So, that is to say, I have no clue . But, I think 400 would be the right one to consider as the 450/400 built its reputation on the penetration that one has. I do also want to use the 300 TSX.

 

[tarbe]

My thinking is...a twist that is ideal for a 400gr will work fine with the 300gr...but the inverse is not at all necessarily true.

 

[CAustin]

Ultimately, I am going to restock both with a custom stock But, the 400 will be my first foray into the world of custom stocks. It's surprising how sexy a blank of walnut is...

Let me know who you get to make the stock for you!

 

[Pheroze]

Let me know who you get to make the stock for you!

I plan on using Lemieux Armuriers in Quebec.

http://lemieuxarmuriers.com/en/armuriers/

I think they are true craftsmen. For example, I was just discussing the barrels and his preference is to make his own fit to the action. I just appreciate their attention to detail. I am really hoping the end product meets my expectations!

I will have to make a trip to Quebec City to get the stock fitted. Should be a really neat experience.

 

[Dr Ray]

I am converting a Brno 602 for this project, and I am a bit overwhelmed by the barrel design. I didn't realize that there were so many parameters to it!

Contour and twist are the issues just now. But, also the number of grooves is an option.

I am thinking a heavier barrel will help with pointing and muzzle flip, but how heavy is too much? I am thinking a 24" barrel.

I am totally in the dark as to how to consider twist and grooves

At the end of the day I will heed my gunsmith's recommendation. But, I do not want to do so blindly!

I am wondering if anyone has any advice on these parameters? Or, is there a reference text I could read to learn about the subtleties of these considerations?

Thanks.

Do you want a fast pointing rifle? If so, then you may require a shorter barrel. You'd lose a bit of velocity but a 22 inch barrel may assist with a faster operation particularly if you are hunting in scrub e.g. Hunting buff in thick scrub.
Muzzle blast would be a lot more of course.

 

[Dr Ray]

Personally, I'd do a 1 in 14 before I'd do a 1 in 16.

Stability in the air is one thing, but you want stability in the meat, too.

I'd always err on the faster side of the twist vs slower....within reason of course.

You want to optimize with the 400gr bullet, I assume?

I agree. The 416 Rigby usually has a 1 in 16 with a 6 groove barrel.
Certainly wouldn't hurt to go for a 1 in 14 to stabilize heavy bullets.

 

[Pheroze]

Do you want a fast pointing rifle? If so, then you may require a shorter barrel. You'd lose a bit of velocity but a 22 inch barrel may assist with a faster operation particularly if you are hunting in scrub e.g. Hunting buff in thick scrub.
Muzzle blast would be a lot more of course.

I thought I preferred 22" barrels, but recently I have come to appreciate the balance a slightly longer one seems to give the gun. Although, your noted advantages of a the shorter barrel are important as this 400 is intended to be used on buffalo...

 

[Dr Ray]

I thought I preferred 22" barrels, but recently I have come to appreciate the balance a slightly longer one seems to give the gun. Although, your noted advantages of a the shorter barrel are important as this 400 is intended to be used on buffalo...

I understand the balance etc.
maybe a 22 inch barrel of medium weight.

Well 2 inches longer barrel maybe and I stress maybe a handicap in thick scrub when you're after buffalo.

Balance and fast snap to the shoulder - very important.

The Sako Brown Bear and Kodiak both have short barrels for rapid handling.
Hard choice for you. Maybe you could get the 24 inch barrel of medium weight and if you don't like the way it handles then you could get a gunsmith to shorten.
All the best in choosing.