Bullet vs bore size

Pheroze

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A number of chamberings have various bore sizes, either historically or by accident. Most recently I have noticed that the 400 H&H can have 0.410 or 0.411

I was told by Swift that their 0.410 bullet will obtund and shoot fine in the .411 bore. But, can a .411 diameter bullet be fired through a .410 bore without safety issues? For example, Barnes has a 300gr .411 bullet that is great in the 400 H&H. Could a person with a .410 bore use it?Does anyone know whether that 0.001 variance is a problem?

I have written to various manufactures and will let you all know what I learn. But I am interested in what the experience is here too.
 
The question is difficult to answer because one would have to know who made the weapons and what kind of barrels they use. There are tolerances for the bore size of the barrels, none can have the exact diameter than the other, but for top quality barrels this tolerance is often only 0.0005 and not 0.001.

I am assuming that a rifle caliber 400 H&H Magnum is not a rifle from a cheap series manufacturer and that the manufacturer accepts such deviations because they do not pose any problems for a shooter who uses different factory loads without first checking the bore diameter of his barrel. Undersized bullets are certainly easier to use than oversized ones. For this reason, I would wait and see what the companies you contacted will answer. Despite the grooves on the Barnes bullet, I would have concerns about firing in a rifle an oversized harder bullet.
 
Undersized bullets are certainly easier to use than oversized ones. For this reason, I would wait and see what the companies you contacted will answer. Despite the grooves on the Barnes bullet, I would have concerns about firing in a rifle an oversized harder bullet.
Those brass CEB type bullets would be the hardest. I will be interested to hear from them.
 
.001" do not make any difference.

Maybe,

...but in the past, under-calibrated bullets were often used because classic bullets are known to press in into the barrel and to adapt to the diameter. With the modern hard-built bullets, especially the monolithic wich deform less easily, things are different.
 
Rifle bores have two diameters- bore and groove. Normal bullet diameter is between bore diameter and groove diameter. Bullet diameter exceeding groove diameter by any amount is asking for trouble. If bullet is of solid base, solid shank design or brass or copper monolithic, exceeding groove diameter almost guarantees erratic and excessive pressure. Drive bands (grooves) in the shanks of solid base and copper or brass monolithics provide a place for bullet metal to go that is displaced by lands in bore, thus mitigating the potential for unpredictable and extreme pressure spikes especially with those type bullets.

Lead bullets can sometimes exceed the bore's groove diameter by a small amount with certain loads without adverse effects but not advised with jacketed bullets and certainly not with solid base or monolithic copper or brass bullets.
 
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Good question......

Need to narrow down the variants....

Using quality produced barrels.....

Barrels with the....optimum depth and width grooves, optimum width and height rifling, and an optimum barrel thickness.

Pressures......Since we are using optimum barrel measurements pressuresare negligent

Soft lead or moderate hard lead No problem as the lead will conform to the barrel grooves and rifling with very little wear on the barrel. Meaning it will take more than a couple of 1000 rounds before any barrel wearing is noticed.

Harder blended lead bullets Not much of a problem as they will conform the barrel grooves and rifling, but these type bullets will wear the rifling down a bit quicker than the pure lead to moderate hard lead.

Jacketed bullets are a bit of a problem as it is dependent on manufacturer as to how thin or thick the jacket is and how if at all it will be malleable to the rifling and grooves. Depending on jacket hardness depends on how the bullet will wear down the rifling.

FMJ, Mono, Solid bullets are a major problem to wearing down rifling even in the best of barrels. As these bullets aren't malleable or have very very little malleability that allows the bullet to conform to the rifling.

Powder Charge also affects barrel life. The hotter, or more powerful the charge the faster ther barrel heats up from bullet friction, and the energy released from the exploded powder charge making it easier or quicker for the bullet to wear away the rifling.

Bullet Diameter barrel wear and accuracy. This holds true regardless of caliber.

Using your 400H&H as the example.

I was told by Swift that their 0.410 bullet will obtund and shoot fine in the .411 bore.

This is True. A .410 bullet can be used in a .411 bore. But is it going to be accurate? Will any, or How much velocity, will be lost? By escaping gas going around the narrow gap between the bullet and grooves as the bullet passes down the barrel and out the muzzle.

But, can a .411 diameter bullet be fired through a .410 bore without safety issues? For example, Barnes has a 300gr .411 bullet that is great in the 400 H&H.

Yes. The question becomes What is your bore diameter, or How tight is your bore?

The tighter your bore the more bullet to rifling friction the faster the .411 bullets will wear your rifling. The more powerful the powder charge plus the .411 bullet equals the greater the increase of wear on the rifling.

Because the bullet to rifling is tighter the greater the potential for increase accuracy., but this isn't always true. A tighter bullet to groove means less space between the bullet and groove, which increases the bullet velocity.
 
@Pheroze, the best example of that is the .450-.400, both the 3” 3$1/4”. They had a groove diameter of .408, .410 and .411.
Years ago, just after buying my Gibbs .450-400 3&1/4”, that slugged .411, I hunted with Graeme Wright and John Marrozi who designed the Woodleigh Hydro.

Both were of the opinion that even the .408 soft will opturate in .411 barrel, but that one should rather not fire .410 or .411 through an old .408 barrel. They also said the .410 and .411 will be completely interchangeable in both softs and solids.

I currently shoot .410 Dzombo solids in my .411 barrel and you can see that the lands completely engage the shaft of a retrieved bullet. I have also tried both .410 and .411 Woodleigh softs. Both give the same velocity, nl 2180 fps and both shoot to the same boint of impact, with L&R barrel printing about 1,5” apart at 50y.
 
I was about to mention that the Woodeligh makes FMJ .408 and .410, but not .411 if memory serves me right.
That's because the .410 and .411 FMJ are interchangeable, but .408 and .411 are not. Hence the same logic can be extended to the soft bullets.

I have shot .411 Hornady soft in my .410 and they work great.
 
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As @GuttormG has said, 0.001" over should not make a huge difference. The pressure might run a bit higher but nothing a slight tweak to the powder charge can't fix. This is why people are always told to start with a slightly underpowered load and work their way up.
 
Hello all

I received a reply from Jörgen Boström the CEO at North Fork. His advice is that the .411 bullet in a .410 barrel could damage the barrel.

I accept that there is a potential liability to saying otherwise if something went wrong. But this is the advice.

I will post when I hear from other manufacturers.
 
What if your .410" barrel actually measures .409something"? And the bullet is actually .410soemthing?
this is really not an issue...
 
What if your .410" barrel actually measures .409something"? And the bullet is actually .410soemthing?
this is really not an issue...
I was think that too. In a round-about way I heard that the CEB folks do not thinks it would be an issue with 0.001 over sized.
 
Hello all

I received a reply from Jörgen Boström the CEO at North Fork. His advice is that the .411 bullet in a .410 barrel could damage the barrel.

I accept that there is a potential liability to saying otherwise if something went wrong. But this is the advice.

I will post when I hear from other manufacturers.
What if your .410" barrel actually measures .409something"? And the bullet is actually .410soemthing?
this is really not an issue...

@Pheroze

As @GuttormG has provided an example of two variables: is what allows the .001 differences bullet to be used.

As @GuttormG has questioned the diameter of rifle bore being smaller than the bore caliber: "....409something?" and your most likely a brief response from the CEO of North Forks.

My previous post here was optimum without variables.

Replacing the suggested .409 something with .4095 bore diameter. Replacing .410 diameter bullet with .4105 diameter bullet. Brings us back to why .411 bullets can be used in .410 bores and what can result from doing such.

Using the .4095 bore diameter and a "hard" bullet of .411 diameter, as stated by North Froks CEO, "....could cause damage...". Because the differentials are no longer +/- .0005 to +/-.001. The increase is + .0015.

Lead or "soft" bullets, combined with a moderate charge of slow burning powder this +.0015 deferential is somewhat negligible as the "soft" bullets can elongate as it passes down the barrel and the moderate charge can keep pressure within SAAMI standards.

"Hard" bullets ie. jacketed, FMJ, mono's, etc. because they won't elongate as "soft" bullets can damage a rifle:
1. Cause excess pressure
2. Increase bullet to barrel friction causing increase wearing down the rifling.
3. Increase barrel wear due to barrel heat add the excess pressure equals barrel deformity.
4. Possibility of bullet to barrel "welding": bullet lodging in barrel.
5. See 1, 3 and 4. Possibility of burst barrel and/or other firearm damge(s). And/ or bodily injury/injuries to shooter and/or bystanders.

Thus all the legal warnings from the various firearms and firearm related, ammunition and ammunition related, manufacturers and reloaders.
 
I think it’s worth noting that a .001” variation in a .410” barrel is comparatively much less than the same .001” in a 30cal or 8mm for example.
It has been normal practice to use .323” projectiles in .318“ groove 8mm Mausers.
The common notion being that if it easily chambers with the bigger bullet it is not an issue and if it does have a too tight neck, a simple chamber ream with the reamer for the .323” bullet is all that is needed.
Not ideal but has anyone actually seen a rifle damaged from doing this?

Also common is shooting .358” bullets in 9X57 Mausers Which have a .356” groove. Again, never heard of damage doing this either. In fact, an old gunsmith once told me that they preferred using 9X57 barrels for 35 Whelen builds because the tight bores were more accurate and a bit faster than .358” barrels.

Even today, Ruger used .308” barrels on their 7.62X39 rifles so we all know that .311” bullets have been used in those rifles.
 
Hello friends. This is an excerpt from the response I got from Barnes:

Shooting it in a .410 diameter barrel “can” raise pressures slightly. If you choose to use it, absolutely begin with starting powder charges and work up, all while watching for pressure signs.
 
I think it’s worth noting that a .001” variation in a .410” barrel is comparatively much less than the same .001” in a 30cal or 8mm for example.

Not ideal but has anyone actually seen a rifle damaged from doing this?

Also common is shooting .358” bullets in 9X57 Mausers Which have a .356” groove. Again, never heard of damage doing this either. In fact, an old gunsmith once told me that they preferred using 9X57 barrels for 35 Whelen builds because the tight bores were more accurate and a bit faster than .358” barrels.

Even today, Ruger used .308” barrels on their 7.62X39 rifles so we all know that .311” bullets have been used in those rifles.

The term(s): "Shot out barrel", "Worn out barrel", "Over bore", "Under bore", "Heavy rifled", all terms used in describing a firearm's bore.

Choose any caliber any any type of rifled firearm.

I'll pick the 404J with a measured .410 diameter bore for an illustration.

Using factory ammo with .410 bullets and upper end of moderate powder charges.

Average range practice 20 rounds with ~2 minutes between shots. On average 8 random range sessions per year, except in prep for a hunt every 2 years and the range time is doubled or tripled with each of these range sessions 40 rounds are fired per session with ~1 minute between shots, and with a ~10 minute break between each 4 shot string.

Several years and 10,000 to 20,000 rounds shot later. The accuracy of the rifle has depleted from super accurate to now looking more like buckshot on the target.

The rifling has been worn down, aka "Shot out".

Switching to a .411 bullet and the rifle becomes accurate again. Another few 100 rounds and the accuracy is lost again. Switching up to a .412 bullet the accuracy returns, BUT the chambering of a round becomes excessively tight/hard/rough, with more noticeable felt recoil, which is due to increase in pressure by the oversized bullet in the barrel throat.

________________________________________________

Even today, Ruger used .308” barrels on their 7.62X39 rifles so we all know that .311” bullets have been used in those rifles.

This can go 2 ways. The short answer is Yes.
The long answer is much more complex and for lack of a better term international politics. Formal foreign policies/agreements/ doctrine amongst foreign nations. Basically seperating what weapons, calibers, types of ammunition/ munitions foreign militaries are Legally authorized/allowed to use and what civilians are can to use, one example: militaries are legally only allowed to use FMJ ammunition, whereas civilians can use both FMJ and expanding ammunition.

Then there are international trade agreements and copyright laws. Whereas countries that ~"lack", the capabilities of advance technologies will simply adapt and alter other countries' technologies for their own use.

Here are just 3 examples:

308/7.62 × 51 NATO vs 7.62 x 39 and 7.62 x 54R

308 NATO firearms won't chamber either of the Russian calibers, yet the Russian 7.62 x 54 can chamber and fire 308 NATO ammunition.

At the time/Back then, Russia and China being "~not so friendly" towards each other and being "neighbors", China obliged themselves by stealing Russian designed weapons and ammunition to manufacture these weapons and ammunition for its military.

The Japanese on the other hand, out of desperation, developed the 7.7 x 58 cartridge for use by their military. They simply modified 30-06 NATO brass and topped it with a 303 British bullet.
 
You do realize you're talking the difference equal to the thickness of a human hair. Pick a bullet you like and shoot it, your gun will tell you if it likes it or not.
 
NOt a problem, ,,410 and ,411 are safe, one may shoot better than another..Some English doubles are 408.. .410 .411. Ive shot them all in my double 450-400s SAme with older bolt guns.
 

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