Can Someone Put My Mind At Ease?

[Clayton]

Model 70 Winchester, (1952 Vintage) .30-06
150 gr Nosler Partition
58.00 gr IMR-4350
CCI Lg Rifle Primer
Win Brass

This load has been in use for I have no idea how many years. I came to it because consistently it produces my best groups (1.038 MOA) with that bullet. I've tried powders from IMR-3031 to Varget and H-4831 and haven't found anything better. It has performed nothing but one-shot kills on Whitetail and Mule Deer at ranges from less than 10 yds to just over 200 yds. The 200 yd one is the only one that ran any distance and he was dead and just didn't know it. Both lungs and heart shredded.

A few years back I had the chance to chronograph the load. Results were an average of 2,772 fps with an E/S of 19 and an S/D of 9.7. I was kind of surprised thinking velocity should be a little closer to 2,900 give or take. I'm not planning to change anything, but this keeps nagging on me and making me wonder.

Is anyone else shooting this load or one close to it and has chronographed data they would be willing to share? I would appreciate your thoughts and comments.

 

[Rob404]

I use IMR 4831 in my 06 with 180s but never chronograph the load,I'd say that if your taking down everything you shoot at your good to go
I'd maybe try some Reloader 19 with a 60.00 gr charge just to see if you can keep the groups tight and maybe increase velocity, you could also jump your present load up 2-3 gr without hurting anything. I use Reloader 19 in my Mannlicher stocked 06 with 150s and I like the groups I get. I think we overthink Velocity a little to much and while it's important it doesn't Trump accuracy

 

[sheephunterab]

That does sound really slow. According to the reloading manual you should be in the 2,900fps range but every gun is different. We shoot 165 grain GMX at 2860fps but speed isn't everything. If the load is accurate there really isn't much to be gained by bumping up the speed other than if you want to extend your shooting distance considerably. Even at that speed you've likely got sufficient impact velocity out to nearly 400 yards. I'd say put your mind at ease and keep killing stuff!

 

[greyfox]

Consider yourself fortunate: you know what the velocity and BC is, now plug it in the computer program and get complete ballistic tables for whatever you hunt!!!
I shoot a 7 Mag that the book says I should be almost 3200, I'm closer to 2900 (shorter barrel) BUT, using the known numbers and a Leupold with CDS all is good. A slow hit (kill shot) beats the hell out of a fast miss!!

 

[flatwater bill]

56 grains 4350 with 180 spire point in 22" bbl 06 produced 2560. Not so very different. It used to kill elk....before I bought a chronograph .....FWB

 

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Over the years I've found that reloading manuals tend to "guild the lilly" (esp. with shotgun data) where velocities are concerned. Remember: There testing is done under very controlled conditions....yours probably aren't
I've come accustom to reloading for accuracy......after all, If you can't hit your target, you can't kill it.....right? After that, I run the loads over a chronagraph, then test for penetration/expansion (where warranted). Most of my loads are a couple to several grains below maximum, and when running them over a chrony, I've found that all but one load was 200-300 fps slower than what the manual said it "should" be. However, they still take game........cleanly Actually, If I'm crunching the numbers correctly, your only off about 130 fps or so......for a rifle that's 50+ years old, I think that's pretty good.
I remember reading an article several years ago by a gun writer who was testing reloads in a .44 magnum revolver......when he first tested a particular load, he got X fps from said load; 20 years later when he tested the same load (and the gun had some wear on it), he noticed he lost something like 200 fps. Same gun, only it had some wear on it.

I think that all those one shot kills should speak for themselves............

 

[edward]

shot placement every time!!!!

 

[Divernhunter]

I have seen that load many times. I also measured it and found that load slow also. I got 2789FPS with 59grs which was enough for me to not use it. I also shoot the 150gr PAR bullet.
I found over my chrono with different rifles that a stout load of IMR4064 or 4895, or Win 760 was excellent and gave me as good or better accuracy.
This is my results with a 20" barrel in a Ruger Ultra-lite.
Win 760-62grs-2988FPS SD 6--other days and somewhat different chrono distances from the barrel gave 2960/2922/2945 with SD of 6 to8- very accurate.
Imr4350 59grs - 2789FPS SD23---too slow for me
Superformance-65gr-2957FPS-SD11
CFE223-54.2gr-2822FPS

In my Ruger American I have just started testing load but this is what I have so far. I think it is a 22" barrel.
Win760-60gr-2983FPS and still need to test 62grs.--Super accurate the 60gr load is
IMR4895-53.4gr-2995fps-SD7-- super accurate
Superformance-65gr-2961fps-SD24--super accurate
RL19-61,5gr-2774fps-SD13- Very accurate but slow-not for me
RL17-58gr-2751fps-very accurate but slow and not for me.
Varget-51gr-2810fps-SD21- just ok accuracy so far worse accuracy of loads tested and slower than more accurate loads.
I have not had time to rest IMR4064 and lost my data but a max load gave super accuracy and great speeds from other testing

All testing done with just a bag under the forearm and the buttstock in my shoulder.
I tend to use the Win 760. My brother uses the IMR4895 and my son-in law uses the IMR4064 for what it is worth. I may change my powder after I finish testing but the Win 760 has worked very well in at least 5 different rifles I have loaded for.
I know the manuals show IMR4350 as giving top speeds but my experience has been very different!
Killed a lot od animals with Win760 and the 150gr PAR. I like speed for flatter shooting myself.

 

[Clayton]

I try to be reasonable in my expectations. And I can't argue with the results. I used to like to think it was all my shooting skill. I've not only out-grown that, but reached the stage I NEED something to prop up on.

Y'all make some good points & your reasoning is sound. I just need to accept it as it is & go on.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts, experience, & wisdom. It's appreciated.

 

[postoak]

Clayton, have you thought about switching to H-4350, which is just a tad slower? reloadersnest.com shows 60 grains of that powder giving just over 3000 fps (all these loads are chrono-ed) from a 22 inch barrel. Bullets were not Nosler partition however. The contributors report good accuracy and no pressure signs. Of course, you would need to work up to these loads to be safe.

 

[Divernhunter]

^^^ I think someone was fudging the number. I have never been able to get that. Nosler shows 3000fps with IMR4350 at 59grs in a 24" barrel. Noone I know has ever done that with their rifles and I have seen several mag articles questioning how they got it by respected writers who were unable to get that speed in their tests.

I may be wrong but I really think not unless they tested in a 30" barrel....even then not sure it will happen

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I have found when loading Noslers that the manual is usually right about what is the most accurate load and powder. I have found it however to be usually in the ballpark of 100fps faster for the load listed than what I actually get.

 

[fsrmg1]

Just keep in mind that most of the test barrels are minimum spec, being that the chambers, throats and bores are on the tight side. I think this is to allow worst case senerio for increased pressure during load development. It sort of builds in a fudge factor that keeps the lawyers happy. The side effect of higher pressure would be increased velocity. A sloppy chamber, eroded throat and worn bore would never even come close to those manual listings.

 

[ZG47]

Just keep in mind that most of the test barrels are minimum spec, being that the chambers, throats and bores are on the tight side. I think this is to allow worst case senerio for increased pressure during load development. It sort of builds in a fudge factor that keeps the lawyers happy. The side effect of higher pressure would be increased velocity. A sloppy chamber, eroded throat and worn bore would never even come close to those manual listings.

@Clayton The above message makes sense. You are getting a good velocity with the 150-gr Nosler Partition projectile, equivalent to the M2 152-gr military load. Any time you try to exceed military velocity with a similar weight and profile projectile, you will burn out the barrel and leade, very quickly.

 

[greyfox]

I also noticed that in comparing Nosler to other makers like Hornady and Barnes, and Swift, the velocities with the same charge, primer etc is usually 100 fps or so faster, Must be the Nosler Brass? Or the Oregon test facility?

I shoot a 7mm Mag, max load IMR 4350, Nosler says 3200, Barnes, Hornady, etc about 3100, Chronograph says 2950, but it's consistent!!!!! And accurate! So, knowing the critical factors,, using a computer, makes long range less complicated, and makes for a good fireside discussion, because HONESTLY and REALLY, when you crunch the numbers: It really isn't a big deal, just Good Old American Marketing!!!

Example: 300 Win Mag, 165 gr at 3200, 180 gr at 3100, difference in trajectory at 600 yds is 5 inches, That's less than 1 MOA at 600 yards!! Someone with much better eyes than mine can perhaps look at an animla at 600 and tell where 5 inches is, but not me.

And, NO, I don't shoot at animals that far, I'm going deer hunting in Arizona in the fall and playing with handloads, numbers, accuracy and a Leupold CDS........

 

[Clayton]

All very good food for thought. And yeah, the topic is a good one for lots of group discussion.

Every rifle I've owned from .223s up to a .338 Win Mag & a .375 H&H have all produced the tightest groups with 1 - 3 gr BELOW max charges. LOL the .375 didn't see much time on the bench. I'm not into self-abuse.

I'm not planning to change the load. It works. I just kept wondering about that velocity. And who knows, maybe a different chronograph would give a significantly different result. But then that would be like owning two watches.

 

[Mekaniks]

Don't over think it. IMO your 1952 30-06 is doing exactly what it was designed to do, which is kill things effectively. It's easy to get caught in the "speed trap". I have been there and it's not really all it's cracked up to be. Just because the grass is greener... If you really want to be the guy with the hot rod rifle Lazzaronie, Weatherby, and lots of others make some super wiz bang shoot across the canyon and the next ridge cartridges.
Did I help??? Cheers

 

[tarbe]

I chronographed some Nosler Custom ammo a couple weeks ago.

300 H&H with 180gr Accubond. Loads only clocked 2,780 fps (in a 26 inch barrel!) vs claim of 2,950.

I let Nosler know how slow this stuff clocked. They checked their QC records for the lot, and reported an average of 2,925 fps.

Then I slapped myself in the forehead...I lengthened the throat 0.2". No kidding the ammo was slow in my rifle...

Your old rifle may just have a long throat. Have you tested to see what the max OAL to the origin of the rifling is?


Tim

 

[Clayton]

Set up is 2.626" to the ogive giving it 0.010" off the lands. COAL is 3.312 +/- depending on condition of the exposed lead tip.

Seating depth set by using a bullet in an empty case jammed into the lands. Then load test rounds of varying depth looking for best groups.

The best I can determine, I've probably shot the old gun more than all the previous owners.

 

[tarbe]

Ok, doesn't sound like you have an abnormally long throat.