Controlled round feed for Dangerous Game

[CBH Australia]

sorry if it’s asked all the time but! I read heaps on CRF vs push feed out of interest.
I believe the advantages are reliable extraction and reliable feeding in various positions.

One example I read was that if a hunter was knocked over it will feed upside down. We hope that doesn’t happen and we hope to make the first shot count and as a minimum have the DG quartering away not charging.

I see there are big bore push feed rifles from Sako and Remington.

I think my Tikka T3 .308 will feed reliably in unusual positions is the CRF feed advice relating to old push feed rifle design issues? Have some manaufacturers overcome these to make a reliable smooth action?

I have a Cz550 safari magnum but mainly due to being on clearance.

 

[bruce moulds]

chris,
any big well designed extractor will pull a case out of a chamber except untder extreme conditions.
it just so happens that a mauser has such a thing, and a winchester nearly as good.
a good extractor on a controlled round feed action MUST ONLY feed from the mag, and not allow the extractor to snap over the rim of a chambered round.
a pushfeed can push a round into the chamber, but will not extract unless the bolt is closed.
if you push such an action without closing, it will leave the round in the chamber.
under pressure this has been known to happen, then another round stripped from the mag and shoved against the chambered one, causing a jam.
by the time you clear it you might just be a smear on the dirt.
this is the primary benefit of controlled feed in a dangerous game rifle.
the round is captured by the extractor on the way in.
certainly this will aid feeding if you happen to be standing on your head.
controlled round feed is just what it says, - controlled round feed.

 

[TheWhitetailNut]

If you want a rifle that feeds poorly, get a CRF action. Just search for threads on feeding issues, its always the great CRF that needs a trip to a smith, then another trip to another more magical gunsmith. There's no doubt they do have more surface bite for extraction. But as I type this, I'm coming to the conclusion stuck cases are a phenomenon limited to the poorly maintained guns of careless people, gun rags to hit word count, and most importantly...marketing material.

 

[WAB]

Well I have 6 CRF rifles and they are all smooth as butter with no feeding issues whatsoever. 5 of them shoot sub moa.

 

[Red Leg]

I have both - several of both - my current favorite African rifle is a Blaser R8 - not a CRF and a straight pull on top of that - works flawlessly. That said my CRF rifles are all perfectly dependable as well.

 

[nztimb]

If you want a rifle that feeds poorly, get a CRF action. Just search for threads on feeding issues, its always the great CRF that needs a trip to a smith, then another trip to another more magical gunsmith. There's no doubt they do have more surface bite for extraction. But as I type this, I'm coming to the conclusion stuck cases are a phenomenon limited to the poorly maintained guns of careless people, gun rags to hit word count, and most importantly...marketing material.

I suspect that this statement is a reflection on the sheer number of CRF actions that are rebarreled and otherwise worked over for larger than original chamberings and this is the aspect that many gun tinkerers have the most trouble with. Generally you do not hear of guns being built by competant gunsmiths lacking in this area.

 

[sierraone]

I have several of both also. One of each type has been to Africa with me. So far I have not had a feeding issue with either type. On occasion when I bought the rifle brand new, it typically took several range trips to smooth the action out. None of them have been to a gunsmith except for my RSM .404 which is a conversion.

 

[TheWhitetailNut]

I suspect that this statement is a reflection on the sheer number of CRF actions that are rebarreled and otherwise worked over for larger than original chamberings and this is the aspect that many gun tinkerers have the most trouble with. Generally you do not hear of guns being built by competant gunsmiths lacking in this area.

No, I'm talking about brand new rifles out of the box. The sheer number of Model 700 clones being rebarreled is exponentially higher than CRF, and they are being cut for harder to feed cases. Entire companies have been built to specialize in making brand new CZ rifles work. Even more impressive are the highly regarded smiths that expressly exclude Kimber rifles from their guarantees, or flatly refuse to touch a Montana.

The fact that some would feel the need to say they have x number of CRF rifles that shoot sub MOA is further evidence in many ways they are inferior, it would be an aberration for even a cheap, new push feed rifle to not be. In fact, after 30 years of rifle lunacy and around 40 rifles I cant say I've ever had a push feed rifle not group .5-.8 with a hunting load.

A good, well tuned CRF is a thing of beauty. I once cycled a Kimber Superamerica in .308 that pulled my hand along as if powered by a specter. It's widely accepted that CRF's are the choice of Americans on safari, and they can be wonderful. I'm just not buying the hype.

 

[WAB]

I should have mentioned that I have plenty of push feed rifles in my safe as well. In 45 years of messing with rifles I have noticed no difference in the inherent accuracy of either and I have never had a feeding problem with a crf rifle.

 

[BeeMaa]

Push feed cycling upside down, slowly...
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pv138PKyaXyDNpF29

After doing this test I realized that the snap caps are lighter than loaded ammo, possibly skewing the results in my favor. So I tried it again in my living room with live PPU 300 grain SPRN. Worked just fine again, but I didn't feel the need to film it.

 

[Ravensview]

BeeMaa, your testing procedure gave me a little chuckle, using the snap caps outside and the live rounds inside, ( I rack my sidearm to chamber a live round inside so not giving any grief), but it still caused me to chuckle. When I get a chance I am going to try that with my pushfeed m70 to see how well it works with my rifle as well, hanks for sharing that info.

 

[BeeMaa]

BeeMaa, your testing procedure gave me a little chuckle, using the snap caps outside and the live rounds inside, ( I rack my sidearm to chamber a live round inside so not giving any grief), but it still caused me to chuckle. When I get a chance I am going to try that with my pushfeed m70 to see how well it works with my rifle as well, hanks for sharing that info.

Every now and then I'll have a neighbor poke their head out. Being able to explain away snap caps is pretty easy, live rounds are another story with the "blue" community I live in. Otherwise I would have done both outside.

 

[Luvthunt]

I too have both types and usually do not respond to this old exchange of opinion. However, for me they both have worked flawlessly for many many years.

 

[CBH Australia]

Push feed cycling upside down, slowly...
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pv138PKyaXyDNpF29

After doing this test I realized that the snap caps are lighter than loaded ammo, possibly skewing the results in my favor. So I tried it again in my living room with live PPU 300 grain SPRN. Worked just fine again, but I didn't feel the need to film it.

Now you have done it. The old CRF vs Pushfeed debate is irrelevant because straight pull is more reliable works upside down

My tip, don't take the snap caps on Safari. A last minute mix up might spell disaster when it fails to fire.

All jokes aside BeeMaa I've seen my first Blazer R8 on the range. A new member at the club had one just one bench away and I hurt my neck spinning round to check it out.

I spoke with the fella and mentioned I've spoken to members here about their Blaser rifles. He pulled out the nice weather stock too. An upgraded walnut he came across. It's a lefty rifle but I was pleased to see it and speak with him. He was quite obliging when he saw my enthusiasm and he explained the whole mechanism, the take down and the bolt lock up.

 

[BeeMaa]

Now you have done it. The old CRF vs Pushfeed debate is irrelevant because straight pull is more reliable works upside down

My tip, don't take the snap caps on Safari. A last minute mix up might spell disaster when it fails to fire.

All jokes aside BeeMaa I've seen my first Blazer R8 on the range. A new member at the club had one just one bench away and I hurt my neck spinning round to check it out.

I spoke with the fella and mentioned I've spoken to members here about their Blaser rifles. He pulled out the nice weather stock too. An upgraded walnut he came across. It's a lefty rifle but I was pleased to see it and speak with him. He was quite obliging when he saw my enthusiasm and he explained the whole mechanism, the take down and the bolt lock up.

I just wanted to give some empirical evidence on the Blaser R8 straight pull (push-feed) action and how it would work when upside down.

It is not meant to be inflammatory towards CRF’s or other brands of PF actions, merely information on the rifles I own.

I wouldn’t say the debate is irrelevant, because there are clear advantages and disadvantages to each. I’m sure the flames of this fire will continue to burn, long after I’ve left this world.

 

[CBH Australia]

I just wanted to give some empirical evidence on the Blaser R8 straight pull (push-feed) action and how it would work when upside down.

It is not meant to be inflammatory towards CRF’s or other brands of PF actions, merely information on the rifles I own.

I wouldn’t say the debate is irrelevant, because there are clear advantages and disadvantages to each. I’m sure the flames of this fire will continue to burn, long after I’ve left this world.

Nah, all good
It's a great demonstration.

Another point I was shown about the Blaser was that it can be loaded and not cocked. There is no way it can go off I was told. Colin, the owner went right into it but as an ex gunhop salesman I guess it knew how to make a pitch and show the features of a firearm he is familiar with.

 

[BeeMaa]

Nah, all good
It's a great demonstration.

Another point I was shown about the Blaser was that it can be loaded and not cocked. There is no way it can go off I was told. Colin, the owner went right into it but as an ex gunhop salesman I guess it knew how to make a pitch and show the features of a firearm he is familiar with.

I saw videos and read about the R8, but once I got one in my hands…it was over. Both my wife and I were sold on the design and inherent safety of the Blaser.

 

[SRvet]

I’m a bit of a Blaser fan for deer and PG but…..The main down side of the Blaser in a DG setting would be the Blaser click! Almost entirely operator error in not fully pushing the bolt forwards but nevertheless a factor to consider. I also don’t consider the Blaser design to be great for dirty environments as I’ve seen too many have issues when a bit of grit stops the rifle fully going into battery. I think that was what stopped the LSR2 being more successful in the military trials. I can recall one local deer stalkers target shoot where three Blasers struggled and had to have the bolts stripped and cleaned in order to keep functioning. The rest of the Mauser derivatives kept going without issues

 

[BeeMaa]

FYI - I will not be running my R8 through the mud to demonstrate it’s effectiveness while dirty.

 

[Bush Buck]

I have had to tune feeding on both push feed and CRF - but CRF more frequently.

There are handling differences between CRF and push feed.
If you choose push feed for DG then you should probably shoot push feed throughout your practice and even when hunting at home.

The main thing that concerns me about push feed is that it is possible to have a round in the chamber and not see it when you open the bolt (because you never closed the bolt completely).
It is also more likely to double feed if mishandled due to inattention or stress.

I believe that a person who usually shoots CRF is more likely to make these mistakes when shooting a push feed.
A well tuned CRF is idiot proof!

I will say that the Sako 85 action does pick up the round earlier than a 700 style action and mitigates some of these issues.