Copper fouling in my Verney-Carron

[dougfinn]

Hi all. I have a VC double in 450-400 NE and am in the process of cleaning the barrels. I've only put 4 rounds through it myself, as well as the ones fired at the proofhouse, so it has not had a lot of rounds put through it yet. My concern is the amount of copper fouling in the barrels. The lands looked like they were copper plated. I've been cleaning it for several hours now using Pro Shot copper solvent IV in conjunction with patches, bronze bore brush and even 0000 steel wool. The build up is less evident now on visual inspection but the patches are still coming out bright blue, so I think I'll be spending a few more hours on the barrels.
The only ammo its been fed is Hornady DGS. Its my understanding these bullets have a copper wash over the steel case. Is this why its leaving so much copper behind? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[GA Hunter]

I have fought many a battle with barrels that foul badly and I have my own methods however in your case I would suggest contacting VC for their suggestions.

One thing I will say is that I do not think they will care to hear much about the use of steel wool.

Good luck.

BD

 

[Hogpatrol]

Try J.B. Bore Paste or IOSSO Bore Cleaner on a patch wrapped around a bronze or nylon brush. If you prefer a solvent, Sweet's 7.62 or Bore-Tech will work well. Agree with GA Hunter, contact VC and steel wool is a good way to ruin the barrel.

 

[bruce moulds]

doug,
copper solvents do not get better than proshot IV.
a nylon brushing with ample solvent in the bores seems to help it work, but soaking is the secret.
abrasives like jb will also help.
sometimes a bronze brushing with hoppes9 after using proshot will help.
steel wool will damage your bores.
copper or brass wool might do less damage.
your new barrels might clean up better with more shots as they are obviously not run in yet.
cleaning often in the early stages of a barrels life will help it fun in.
bruce.

 

[meigsbucks]

Try J.B. Bore Paste or IOSSO Bore Cleaner on a patch wrapped around a bronze or nylon brush. If you prefer a solvent, Sweet's 7.62 or Bore-Tech will work well. Agree with GA Hunter, contact VC and steel wool is a good way to ruin the barrel.

I agree with hog patrol. JB paste works great. If you prefer a chemical versus abrasive method, I use Barnes CR-10 or Shooters Choice Copper Solvent.
Steel wool is a big NO!

 

[Red Leg]

This will sound like heresy to many, but unless accuracy is affected, why worry? The copper is filling irregularities in the barrel. I currently own several dozen rifles, and have owned many dozen others. I use only balistoil. Usually, only ballistol with a cloth patch - and not real often with that. I bet I haven't used a copper solvent in thirty-years or more. And virtually all of my rifles are MOA or better, and the perhaps three or four that aren't don't have copper issues - they are pre-WWI or WWII take-downs.

 

[Eric Anderson]

This will sound like heresy to many, but unless accuracy is affected, why worry? The copper is filling irregularities in the barrel. I currently own several dozen rifles, and have owned many dozen others. I use only balistoil. Usually, only ballistol with a cloth patch - and not real often with that. I bet I haven't used a copper solvent in thirty-years or more. And virtually all of my rifles are MOA or better, and the perhaps three or four that aren't don't have copper issues - they are pre-WWI or WWII take-downs.

Copper fouling can be an issue. Low volume rifles you won’t really notice it. The more fouling a barrel has though, the faster it tends to accumulate.

Some copper fouling can actually improve accuracy. Some rifles bores just shoot better slightly fouled. Some don’t.
All rifle barrels can get to the point where it has a serious effect on accuracy. I have seen barrels so fouled the bullets keyhold.
Most rifles aren’t shot enough to get to that point though. I believe barrel temp has a lot to do with it as well. Semis tend to accumulate a lot more copper in my experience than a bolt gun in the same caliber.

Pushing bullets really fast or with hot burning powder also seems to really accelerate copper fouling.

My favorite hunting rifles have a definite poi shift between a fouled barrel and a clean one.
That is why I always zero a cold bore ever so slightly fouled barrel (5 rounds of fouling)

I do that because it is repeatable.

Cold bore clean only gets you one shot, cold bore slightly fouled gets you lots of good shots.

After hunting trip, I clean the hell out of the bore and then foul it.

 

[Red Leg]

Copper fouling can be an issue. Low volume rifles you won’t really notice it. The more fouling a barrel has though, the faster it tends to accumulate.

Some copper fouling can actually improve accuracy. Some rifles bores just shoot better slightly fouled. Some don’t.
All rifle barrels can get to the point where it has a serious effect on accuracy. I have seen barrels so fouled the bullets keyhold.
Most rifles aren’t shot enough to get to that point though. I believe barrel temp has a lot to do with it as well. Semis tend to accumulate a lot more copper in my experience than a bolt gun in the same caliber.

Pushing bullets really fast or with hot burning powder also seems to really accelerate copper fouling.

My favorite hunting rifles have a definite poi shift between a fouled barrel and a clean one.
That is why I always zero a cold bore ever so slightly fouled barrel (5 rounds of fouling)

I do that because it is repeatable.

Cold bore clean only gets you one shot, cold bore slightly fouled gets you lots of good shots.

After hunting trip, I clean the hell out of the bore and then foul it.

After a hunting trip, I clean it lightly. We all have different experiences. I have never ever had a POI shift from copper fowling.

 

[Eric Anderson]

After a hunting trip, I clean it lightly. We all have different experiences. I have never ever had a POI shift from copper fowling.

Most of my rifles don’t, out of 20, only two of mine do, they just so happen to be my favorites.
The barrels that I have seen so bad they keyhole the rifling was almost filled in. Not mine, so I have no idea how that happened.
/shrug

Every barrel is different. What works for one barrel may not work for another.

 

[Hogpatrol]

I borescope mine after cleaning and some of them retain a bit of copper. As previously posted, some are ok with copper and some will get a buildup and need it removed to retain accuracy.

 

[dougfinn]

Well I finally got it clean after 6 hours of soaking in copper solvent and wiping. I’m still wondering if it’s the copper wash on the Hornady bullets that coming off and fouling the rifling. I’ve had green and blue patches from my other rifles when using the copper solvent, but never so bad that it was visible in the bore, and quite heavy looking by the looks of it. I understand the hesitation to use steel wool, but I’ve used 0000 on restorations to remove rust and that’s all it removes, it even leaves the bluing if done gently. I’ve got some Woodleighs I’m going to load so I’ll see if they also foul the barrel.

 

[IvW]

Brass only solids and expanding bullets by Rhino bullets.

The bullets are also moly-coated, which lowers the chamber pressure somewhat while reducing copper fouling in the barrel.

 

[1dirthawker]

I agree with hog patrol. JB paste works great. If you prefer a chemical versus abrasive method, I use Barnes CR-10 or Shooters Choice Copper Solvent.

i also agree with hog patrol, the reason for buildup of copper is likely a rough bore. the jb paste will smooth that out and making the bore smoother will always leave less fouling.

 

[gin535]

Hi all. I have a VC double in 450-400 NE and am in the process of cleaning the barrels. I've only put 4 rounds through it myself, as well as the ones fired at the proofhouse, so it has not had a lot of rounds put through it yet. My concern is the amount of copper fouling in the barrels. The lands looked like they were copper plated. I've been cleaning it for several hours now using Pro Shot copper solvent IV in conjunction with patches, bronze bore brush and even 0000 steel wool. The build up is less evident now on visual inspection but the patches are still coming out bright blue, so I think I'll be spending a few more hours on the barrels.
The only ammo its been fed is Hornady DGS. Its my understanding these bullets have a copper wash over the steel case. Is this why its leaving so much copper behind? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

hi,
Please use solvant and patches but not steel wool.Even if it's soft wool, it's abrasive product.
just carefull with some solvent, must be stop with oïl after some time.
Best regards
jérome

 

[Hogpatrol]

hi,
Please use solvant and patches but not steel wool.Even if it's soft wool, it's abrasive product.
just carefull with some solvent, must be stop with oïl after some time.
Best regards
jérome

Jerome, just curious, how are the barrels rifled, button, cut or hammer forged? Also, are they lapped before and after rifling?

 

[ve7poi]

I Use wipe out let set overnight and run a patch through next day it does not harm barrels sitting for a day and helps prevent fouling. New rifle usually shoot and clean every round for first 10 then when needed.
Just don’t get one stock or in action take barrels off to clean.

 

[Shootist43]

The need for and the frequency of copper fouling removal has been a contentious topic over the years. IMHO Eric Anderson's post clearly states the obvious. All barrels will need it at some time or other, and that some barrels need it more often. If you are really interested in the topic "google it" and you will find that there two products that clearly outshine (no pun intended) all others. One developed by Uncle Sam for his "big bores" called KG -12. The other is Bore Tech's CU +2. One thing to note is that you cannot use a copper Jag or Phosphor Bronze brush with a good copper remover. Nickle plated Jags and Nylon brushes must be used to insure that the copper being removed is indeed coming from the barrel.

 

[ve7poi]

Very true after break in I only use solvent and dry patch or bore snake until accuracy drops off the clean bore really well usually takes 3or 4 shots to settle rifle down again.
I’ve gone as long as 200 rounds before accuracy falls off at times.

 

[Blue Moon]

I usually run a couple of patches with denaturated alcohol/methylated spirits (and end with a dry patch) after the main cleaning is done. This generally removes the need for taking "settle down shots" after cleaning.

 

[Hogpatrol]

After cleaning, I run a wet patch of Marvel Mystery Oil down the bore. Some use Kroil, Hoppe's #9 or other liquid that leaves a film. I never shoot a dry bore on a first shot after cleaning. YMMV.