Feed lips/Rails.... when too much is taken off....?

[DWB]

Hi Gents.

Much to my dismay one smith removed some of the feed lips/rails to make an extra round fit in the magazine without asking me if he was allowed to touch them...

Another smith tried to fix it, but the lack of lips in the front part causes the bolt lug to slip in almost under the lip, causing the bolt to jam when cycling the action very fast. (Bolt cams over a bit too much)

Is there a remedy to build up these lips/rails with some fancy welding?

These actions are not exactly overly available this side of the world...

 

[JimP]

In my mind they would need to take it down even further and then add some metal and bring that metal down to specs.

I don't think that they could just add material by just welding a bead on it but they may be able to.

 

[DWB]

Thank you.

I think the big question is Can they?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

What model rifle are we talking about. Seriously stupid "gunsmith" removing metal at that end of the receiver. What's the point? Bullet end is the part of the box that will always have more than enough room. The area just at and behind the case shoulder is critical.

I don't think this will be as serious as it sounds. It will require some careful tig welding and then machining. It will not be cheap. The receiver needs to stay cool during the welding so it's not warped. You just need enough metal added to keep the bolt on track. The bullets presumably are jumping into the extractor/bolt face at appropriate place so it's just the end of the feeding rails that needs sorting out. Is it just one side that's the problem?

I just finished converting an 8mm Czech Mauser to 404 Jeffery. Actually, the gunsmith (VERY qualified) initially refused to do the feeding alterations, only threading and installing the new barrel. So I did it. Not rocket science ... but damn near. There is no way that gun could be converted to 4+1 magazine without significantly modifying the bottom metal and stock. Changing the feeding rails alone won't do it. I left it at 3+1. If I can't kill a buffalo with four 400 gr bullets, I guess I deserve to be stomped to death.

 

[DWB]

Jip, feeding itself is fine, bul literally the last 1" of the rails are a bit slim when working the bolt hard and fast.

It's a ZKK602 action.

Bolt gets stuck like this...

Sorry for the gun looking so bad, obviously didn't get in everywhere with the oil cloth...

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Okay. So this is a Mauser magnum action and we are looking at it from the bottom of magazine with floor plate removed. It actually looks to me like the "gunsmith" pushed open the receiver rails rather than cutting away metal. The right side appears to be distorted more than the left. The original receiver from my standard Mauser action was not ballooned like that. So this may be an easy fix. Someone may be able to simply squeeze the sides back into their original position. Good luck.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Did that guy push open the sides of magazine box too? My guess is yes.

 

[Frederik]

Deon, I am sure with the great minds on this forum you will get a solution.
Its not easy to find Magnum CFR actions in South Africa on its own and if you do it aint cheap.

Then a incompentent smith screws it up in one go.

 

[BRICKBURN]

I think someone needs to buy you a new action. What was the guy thinking.

 

[DWB]

Good question.....

But getting these actions now are a nightmare....

The gun works fine for most people, but I shoot big bore comps with it and like reloading in my shoulder with a lot of speed and that is where it goes pearshaped.

There is just enough play, force and angles in the wrong moment to get it in there just a little.

I always say a rifle needs to be able to keep up with my hands.... and now it doesn't as much as I like it to....

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Can you get your hands on a carpenter's C-clamp? Remove the action from the stock, open the bolt, and use the clamp to gently squeeze together the sides of the receiver over the bolt track. Compress a bit then try closing the bolt. If it's still sloppy in the track, open the bolt again, and squeeze a bit more. I believe you will see some improvement. Squeeze the circled area (while bolt is retracted).

Very important: do you see any signs that the guy heated the receiver before he bent it? Is the metal discolored?

From what I can see, it appears the clown simply pried open the receiver in an attempt to make it match a magazine box that he "opened up" by prying that wider as well. He did this in a foolish attempt (probably unsuccessful) to add more capacity to the magazine. That receiver is, I'm quite certain, not in the original shape. I only have a standard action 8mm Czech BRNO Mauser that I "opened up" to 404 Jeffery to go by. As I recall, the rails and sides of the receiver above the magazine box are straight, not ballooned outward like yours. I changed the bottom metal to 416 Rem Mag for the width required to hold three fatter 404 cartridges. Then I carefully carved away just enough metal on the bottom of the receiver to make it match the new box. The thought actually occurred to me that it might be easier to simply push out the sides of the receiver to make it match the bottom metal. But that is not the way the expert gunmakers do this conversion. So I put on my thinking cap, puckered my pooper, and started carving metal with a Dremel tool grinding wheel. It took several days of very nervous, cautious, and careful work but eventually I got the gun to load and cycle 404 shells perfectly.

I say "as I recall" because my Mauser is not here right now. The action is in the mail on the way back from the gun bluing guy (checked the tracking number just now and it's half way home). But I was looking at the same bottom of receiver almost constantly for the better part of a week while I worked on it. That shape is wrong, I'm sure of it. Send me a pic of the inside of bottom metal looking down into the magazine box. If that is also ballooned out, then that tells the tale. We will know for sure what he did to the receiver.

I strongly suspect the idiot also opened up the stock so the misshapen receiver and bottom metal would fit. If you can reshape them to original, you will need to rebed the stock. Not a big deal.

 

[DWB]

Thank you @Ontario Hunter

I don't think the received was bent, but they did remove some metal where the mag box slots into the receiver previously.

Unfortunately we are at the point where one gunsmith now has to fix another's mess....

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Your bolt must have a lot of sideways slop (wiggle) when closing. Is the sear for trigger that hangs from bottom of cocking piece at the back of the bolt getting caught as it enters its track on the top of the tang at back end of receiver? Is that where your bolt is catching as it's being closed?

 

[bowjijohn]

Been there

Done that

Got the T shift

Laser welding can be employed to rebuild the feed lips

i spent a fortune on a Mauser 98 in 404 Jeff in an attempt to cure a feed issue

It too had excessive material taken from the feed lips

Laser welding built them back up in order to re-fettle

Sadly to no avail - it never fed correctly

Ended up just giving the whole thing a way and I believe someone on here took it to Iceland

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Thank you @Ontario Hunter

I don't think the received was bent, but they did remove some metal where the mag box slots into the receiver previously.

Unfortunately we are at the point where one gunsmith now has to fix another's mess....

So if you put a straightedge (e.g. ruler) against the sides of the receiver bottom, there's no gap? Does not look straight end to end to me. Guess it must be an optical illusion caused by cutting metal away. Keep in mind I had to cut a helluva lot of metal away where the receiver met the box but the bolt track was never altered. Again, I wonder why he carved away metal at that end? The back end of the box is where the cases are thickest and where creating space would be more critical.

What did he do to the bottom metal?

 

[DWB]

Been there

Done that

Got the T shift

Laser welding can be employed to rebuild the feed lips

i spent a fortune on a Mauser 98 in 404 Jeff in an attempt to cure a feed issue

It too had excessive material taken from the feed lips

Laser welding built them back up in order to re-fettle

Sadly to no avail - it never fed correctly

Ended up just giving the whole thing a way and I believe someone on here took it to Iceland

View attachment 563132

Thank you Sir.

In this case the feeding is fine, but it is now just basically that bit the lug needs to ride on!

Any photos of the Feed lips after they were welded?

 

[bowjijohn]

Thank you Sir.

In this case the feeding is fine, but it is now just basically that bit the lug needs to ride on!

Any photos of the Feed lips after they were welded?

Sadly not

But the Gent that now owns it might read this and come back

404J Built on FN action

Just picked up a few guns at auction however this was the best...now paperwork to get it to Iceland ...Will be nice to compare it to the Parker Hale 404J

www.africahunting.com

 

[DWB]

Thank you!

@Odinsraven if you maybe read this

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Sadly not

But the Gent that now owns it might read this and come back

404J Built on FN action

Just picked up a few guns at auction however this was the best...now paperwork to get it to Iceland ...Will be nice to compare it to the Parker Hale 404J

www.africahunting.com

Damn, that is a nice looking rifle. What a shame. Did you do the work or just try to clean up?

I was faced with a similar shade-tree gunsmith mess when I started my 404 project. From an online auction I bought the action with a no-name aftermarket 30-06 barrel attached. Fortunately, the gunsmith abandoned the project at that point (though curiously the barrel showed signs of having been fired). The bottom metal didn't belong to this gun and neither did the bolt shroud which had been modified for a trigger block safety. The idiot cut off the military bolt handle and then attempted to weld on a fancy aftermarket one. He didn't attach it straight and in the wrong spot. I was able to work around those issues by grinding and polishing in strategic locations. The bigger problem was he didn't keep the bolt cool while welding on the bolt handle and it warped slightly. Almost had to throw in the towel at that point but finally managed to correctly "remanufacture" bolt and the firing pin, again reshaping at strategic spots. Quite the challenge! Fortunately, the lugs and bolt face end were true so no safety issues. I bought a new 3-position safety and that's when I discovered the bolt wasn't straight. The guy simply opened up the threads on a trigger block safety bolt shroud he picked up somewhere to make it work ... sometimes. But then my new 3-position bolt shroud wouldn't thread into the crooked bolt. What a mess. All good now though. Cycles like a dream.

 

[DWB]

Your bolt must have a lot of sideways slop (wiggle) when closing. Is the sear for trigger that hangs from bottom of cocking piece at the back of the bolt getting caught as it enters its track on the top of the tang at back end of receiver? Is that where your bolt is catching as it's being closed?

Typical Mauser type action with enough wiggle to prevent it from getting stuck...

The problem is it is at that point in the movement where the bolt is forced far enough to the left at the back (The front is then obviously the furthest to the right) with the upward camming action still being forced on the bolt handle....

I cycle as fast as I can and am a big guy, so it is probably a perfect storm situation that won't happen to anyone else... And will probably not happen when cycled out of the shoulder.

Just to give you a bit of an idea....:
This is how it must perform