First Post Pandemic Purchase

[Panther Shooter]

I have been often thinking about selling my William Wellington Greener 12 Bore Wildfowl Gun for quite some time , ever since it developed a bulge on the right barrel . And I wished to purchase a new side by side shotgun, for my wing shooting applications .

After the lockdown got lifted , I was able to sell my William Wellington Greener and commenced looking for a nice replacement . Today , I have been most fortunate to purchase a one , which I think shall suit my needs perfectly .

It is an Astra 12 Bore , made in Spain . It has double triggers , extractors , 2 3/4 inch chambers and 28 inch barrels ( Left barrel = Full Choke . Right Barrel = Modified Choke ) . I purchased it for the equivalent of 195 American Dollars , from the “ Gun Max “ firearms shop .

I cannot wait to take it out for next week’s greylag goose Shikar . 42 pellets of Australian AAA can bring down even the largest of our Bengal greylag geese .

Hopefully, this Spanish shotgun can resist having it’s barrels bulge , far better than my William Wellington Greener 12 Bore Wildfowl Gun could .

I shall take it out , to our local shooting range tomorrow and give it a try . Hopefully , I shall report my results here .

 

[Major Khan]

That is a fine looking Astra , Panther Shooter . Why don't you nick name it , the " Old Spaniard " ? I know that you do not ever use larger buck shot sizes in your shotgun(s) , but I would personally subscribe the use of AAA cartridges in your W W Greener shot gun ... as being the reason why the shot gun's barrel had bulged .
English game guns ( such as your old W W Greener shot gun ) typically lend themselves well to the smaller shot sizes , like # 4 , #5 , or #6 . Continental brands ( historically speaking ) are generally a little bit better suited for the use of larger shot sizes . I believe that your Astra shot gun shall be perfectly safe to use ... with AAA Cartridges . I cannot wait to see it on the 15th !

By the way ... Whose motor cycle is that ?

 

[Panther Shooter]

That is a fine looking Astra , Panther Shooter . Why don't you nick name it , the " Old Spaniard " ? I know that you do not ever use larger buck shot sizes in your shotgun(s) , but I would personally subscribe the use of AAA cartridges in your W W Greener shot gun ... as being the reason why the shot gun's barrel had bulged .
English game guns ( such as your old W W Greener shot gun ) typically lend themselves well to the smaller shot sizes , like # 4 , #5 , or #6 . Continental brands ( historically speaking ) are generally a little bit better suited for the use of larger shot sizes . I believe that your Astra shot gun shall be perfectly safe to use ... with AAA Cartridges . I cannot wait to see it on the 15th !

By the way ... Whose motorcycle is that ?

Major Khan Sir
Indeed , I do hope to show it to you next week ! I am honestly a little surprised that the AAA shot pellets had caused the right barrel of my William Wellington Greener Wildfowl Gun to develop a bulge . I do know that vintage English Wildfowl Guns and Game Guns are not meant to be used with buckshot , such as SSG or larger .
However , I genuinely thought the the Australian AAA cartridges would be perfectly alright . They only have a pellet diameter of 5.08 millimeter .

Hopefully , this Astra shall hold up far better !

PS : The motorcycle belongs to the son in law . He accompanied me today .

 

[roverandbrew]

Congratulations! Great looking side by side.

 

[Panther Shooter]

Congratulations! Great looking side by side.

Roverandbrew
Thank you ! I love the side by side configuration , above all others for a shotgun .

 

[Red Leg]

Good luck with that Astra. Though it is apparently proofed for 2 3/4 ounce loads, I would be leary of putting very many heavy buckshot loads through it - particularly that left barrel (continental guns are typically choked somewhat tighter than their British cousins). Astra's were produced when the quality of Spanish guns were unfortunately somewhat suspect. This was particularly true of what we would call working guns. One would be solid as a bank vault, and the next would suffer from improperly heat treated springs, hammers, pins etc. I can't really tell much from the photos, but the lever seems to be left of center. That could mean that the gun is starting to shoot loose from the action face - it also may simply be the way the photo is taken. You can check this in two ways: 1) Hold it up to a bright light and see if you can see a gap between breech face and barrels, and 2) Take off the forend and give it a good shake and see if you detect any movement. If neither is is present, I would still be a little cautious and take it easy with this gun until you have fully sorted out its preferences. On the positive side, the case coloring indicates that it was not used very hard. It also has an extra long water table which is typical of guns especially built for heavy loads. You may have found a gem. Nevertheless, I suspect it would respond much better to loads of N0. 2 shot than AAA - a load that is also very effective on geese.

 

[Panther Shooter]

Good luck with that Astra. Though it is apparently proofed for 2 3/4 ounce loads, I would be leary of putting very many heavy buckshot loads through it - particularly that left barrel (continental guns are typically choked somewhat tighter than their British cousins). Astra's were produced when the quality of Spanish guns were unfortunately somewhat suspect. This was particularly true of what we would call working guns. One would be solid as a bank vault, and the next would suffer from improperly heat treated springs, hammers, pins etc. I can't really tell much from the photos, but the lever seems to be left of center. That could mean that the gun is starting to shoot loose from the action face - it also may simply be the way the photo is taken. You can check this in two ways: 1) Hold it up to a bright light and see if you can see a gap between breech face and barrels, and 2) Take off the forend and give it a good shake and see if you detect any movement. If neither is is present, I would still be a little cautious and take it easy with this gun until you have fully sorted out its preferences. On the positive side, the case coloring indicates that it was not used very hard. Nevertheless, I suspect it would respond much better to loads of N0. 2 shot than AAA - a load that is also very effective on geese.

Sir
Thank you very much for your educated insight . I myself have only used two side by side shotguns my entire life . The very first one was an Indian Ordinance Factories 12 Bore DBBL , which I had purchased in 1969 .

The second was my William Wellington Greener 12 Bore Wildfowl Gun , which I
purchased in 1975 . It developed that bulge on the right barrel , in 1979 .

I shall pay heed to your advice and limit myself to No. 2 Birdshot Cartridges for our greylag geese . I use Winchester cartridges and have countless boxes of 36 gram No. 2 cartridges in my closet .

I will try the shotgun tomorrow and report the results here . If I do not like the shotgun , then I have one month to return it to Gun Max .

On a related subject , @Major Khan Sir’s Belgian shotgun holds up well to AAA cartridges and spherical ball cartridges . Do you believe that his shotgun was specifically made to function optimally with those sorts of loads , by the manufacturers ? He has been using it since 1960 .

 

[Major Khan]

Sir
Thank you very much for your educated insight . I myself have only used two side by side shotguns my entire life . The very first one was an Indian Ordinance Factories 12 Bore DBBL , which I had purchased in 1969 .
View attachment 346924
The second was my William Wellington Greener 12 Bore Wildfowl Gun , which I
purchased in 1975 . It developed that bulge on the right barrel , in 1979 .
View attachment 346925
I shall pay heed to your advice and limit myself to No. 2 Birdshot Cartridges for our greylag geese . I use Winchester cartridges and have countless boxes of 36 gram No. 2 cartridges in my closet .

I will try the shotgun tomorrow and report the results here . If I do not like the shotgun , then I have one month to return it to Gun Max .

On a related subject , @Major Khan Sir’s Belgian shotgun holds up well to AAA cartridges and spherical ball cartridges . Do you believe that his shotgun was specifically made to function optimally with those sorts of loads , by the manufacturers ? He has been using it since 1960 .

I have actually been using it since 1959 .
I suppose that I have been insanely fortunate with my " Old Belgian " . That grand old gun is a durable 1 , indeed !

By the way , I would be inclined to ignore my own previous advice and listen to @Red Leg Sir . The gentle man knows a great deal more about double barreled rifles and shot guns ... than most of us do .
Stick with # 2 Cartridges for Greylag Geese .
I only have 1 question : Have you thought about how you are going to dispatch kakar deer during beats ... since this shot gun is not recommended for use with AAA cartridges ?

 

[Panther Shooter]

I have actually been using it since 1959 .
I suppose that I have been insanely fortunate with my " Old Belgian " . That grand old gun is a durable 1 , indeed !

By the way , I would be inclined to ignore my own previous advice and listen to @Red Leg Sir . The gentle man knows a great deal more about double barreled rifles and shot guns ... than most of us do .
Stick with # 2 Cartridges for Greylag Geese .
I only have 1 question : Have you thought about how you are going to dispatch kakar deer during beats ... since this shot gun is not recommended for use with AAA cartridges ?

Major Khan Sir ,
That is a good question . Can you loan me your German semi automatic 12 Bore , for those times of the year ?
You both are offering extremely sound advice . I do not wish the barrels of my new Astra to ever develop a bulge .
I shall use Winchester brand cartridges .
No. 8 for Snipe & Dove
No. 7.5 for Quail
No. 6 for Pigeons and Cranes
No. 5 for Hares
No . 4 for Common Sheldrake Ducks & Teal Ducks
No. 2 for Greylag Geese

 

[Major Khan]

Major Khan Sir ,
That is a good question . Can you loan me your German semi automatic 12 Bore , for those times of the year ?
You both are offering extremely sound advice . I do not wish the barrels of my new Astra to ever develop a bulge .
I shall use Winchester brand cartridges .
No. 8 for Snipe & Dove
No. 7.5 for Quail
No. 6 for Pigeons and Cranes
No. 5 for Hares
No . 4 for Common Sheldrake Ducks & Teal Ducks
No. 2 for Greylag Geese
View attachment 346926

Of course , I shall !

 

[375Fox]

I’m curious, what do your gun shops look like in Bangladesh? Just a couple rifles and shotguns to choose from or do your shops have a good selection to choose from in stock?

 

[Major Khan]

I’m curious, what do your gun shops look like in Bangladesh? Just a couple rifles and shotguns to choose from or do your shops have a good selection to choose from in stock?

Here you go , young man .

 

[Red Leg]

I would love to look through those old hammer guns. I suspect there are more than one left over from the days of Empire that would be a real treasure. Several of the .22 bolt actions look like former military training arms? And obviously, air guns would seem to be very popular.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

That’s a fine looking shotgun Panther Shooter. I should think it will serve you well.
Major I wish a few of those BRNO 22 rifles were in my local gun shop.

 

[Major Khan]

I would love to look through those old hammer guns. I suspect there are more than one left over from the days of Empire that would be a real treasure. Several of the .22 bolt actions look like former military training arms? And obviously, air guns would seem to be very popular.

Sir , perhaps the following information would be of interest to you :
In Bangladesh , the following fire arms are readily found in fire arms stores :
> .22 Long Rifle calibre bolt rifles ( BRNO / CZ )
> .22 Long Rifle calibre semi automatic rifles ( various brands )
> .22 Long Rifle calibre semi automatic pistols ( various brands )
> .22 Long Rifle calibre revolvers ( various brands )
> .22 Winchester magnum rim fire calibre rifles ( Austrian ISSC brand )
> .22 Winchester magnum rim fire calibre semi automatic pistols ( various brands )
> .22 Winchester magnum rim fire calibre revolvers ( various brands ) .
> .32 ACP calibre semi automatic pistols ( Astra , Walther , Beretta , Smith & Wesson , Colt , Ruger )
> .32 Smith & Wesson calibre revolvers
( Mostly older Colt or Smith & Wesson revolvers )
> 12 Bore over under shot guns ( various brands )
> 12 Bore pump shot guns ( various brands )
> 12 Bore semi automatic shot guns ( various brands )

Sadly , new side by side shot guns are not found off the shelf ( Due to lack of demand . Most younger hunters sadly want a semi automatic 12 Bore shot gun , equipped with a 3.5 inch chamber ) . The 1s which exist are all from the British Colonial Era ( pre 1947 ) . That is why you will see that virtually ALL of the side by side shot guns found in Bangladesh fire arms stores ... have external hammers . We refer to them as " Dowal Bonduk " ( " Hammer Gun " ) . Every fire arms store in Bangladesh has 1 or 2 double barreled side by side exposed hammer shot guns in their racks. Virtually , all of these were made by the Isaac Hollis brand , and have 2.75 inch chambers . However , 1 of the shot guns in the pictures is also a William Cashmore brand exposed hammer side by side shot gun ... which has 3 inch chambers . It came from a deceased Nawab's estate sale .

@Kawshik Rahman owns a Westley Richards hammerless side by side shot gun , which was made in 1928 . However , that shot gun used to belong to a famous Magistrate ... and Kawshik purchased it , as part of an estate sale as soon as it was offered for sale to Columbia Fire Arms Co.

You should really meet our friend , Enayet . He owns an Issac Hollis 12 Bore double barreled side by side exposed hammer shot gun ... with which he has successfully killed 19 man eating clouded panthers , till now ( among other things ) .

Now , yes . After 1947 ... some side by side shot guns were brought in to the country . But these were not put up for sale . They were the private property of shikarees who imported them for their own personal privately through TCB ( Trading Corporation Bangladesh ) . Occasionally , these find their way in to circulation if their original owner ( or his family members ) sell the shot gun , afterwards .
I strongly suspect that Panther Shooter's Astra shot gun is 1 such fire arm .

Of course , there is no law prohibiting a shikaree from privately importing a new side by side shot gun from abroad , through TCB ... if they wish . Many shikarees / shooters / fire arms owners ( who would like to own a new side by side shot gun ) obviously do .
2 years ago , fellow forum member @Captain Nwz arranged the import of 5 Beretta Model 486 Parallelo side by side shot guns through BSF ( Bangladesh Shooting Federation ) . They readily sold out .

In 1996 , 8 Remington Model 700 bolt rifles ( chambered in 7×57 mm Mauser calibre ) were imported in to Bangladesh by BSF. Along with 8 boxes of vintage Winchester Super X 175 grain soft point cartridges . They readily sold out .

A citizen can also import a fire arm or ammunition of any of the following calibres from abroad , through TCB :
> .22 Hornet
> .243 Winchester
> 7×57 mm Mauser
> 7 mm Remington magnum

It shall reach you in a maximum of 35 days . This is how @Panther Shooter replenishes his stock of 7 mm Remington magnum cartridges routinely .

Air rifles are extremely popular among teen agers who are under 18 years of age , and who want to learn shooting .
The vintage BRNO .22 Long Rifle calibre bolt rifles are all former properties of rifle clubs .

 

[Major Khan]

That’s a fine looking shotgun Panther Shooter. I should think it will serve you well.
Major I wish a few of those BRNO 22 rifles were in my local gun shop.

If you ever come to Bangladesh , Master Smith ... I shall gift you 1 . This 1 belongs to Kawshik's niece .

 

[Red Leg]

Sir , perhaps the following information would be of interest to you :
In Bangladesh , the following fire arms are readily found in fire arms stores :
> .22 Long Rifle calibre bolt rifles ( BRNO / CZ )
> .22 Long Rifle calibre semi automatic rifles ( various brands )
> .22 Long Rifle calibre semi automatic pistols ( various brands )
> .22 Long Rifle calibre revolvers ( various brands )
> .22 Winchester magnum rim fire calibre rifles ( Austrian ISSC brand )
> .22 Winchester magnum rim fire calibre semi automatic pistols ( various brands )
> .22 Winchester magnum rim fire calibre revolvers ( various brands ) .
> .32 ACP calibre semi automatic pistols ( Astra , Walther , Beretta , Smith & Wesson , Colt , Ruger )
> .32 Smith & Wesson calibre revolvers
( Mostly older Colt or Smith & Wesson revolvers )
> 12 Bore over under shot guns ( various brands )
> 12 Bore pump shot guns ( various brands )
> 12 Bore semi automatic shot guns ( various brands )

Sadly , new side by side shot guns are not found off the shelf ( Due to lack of demand . Most younger hunters sadly want a semi automatic 12 Bore shot gun , equipped with a 3.5 inch chamber ) . The 1s which exist are all from the British Colonial Era ( pre 1947 ) . That is why you will see that virtually ALL of the side by side shot guns found in Bangladesh fire arms stores ... have external hammers . We refer to them as " Dowal Bonduk " ( " Hammer Gun " ) . Every fire arms store in Bangladesh has 1 or 2 double barreled side by side exposed hammer shot guns in their racks. Virtually , all of these were made by the Isaac Hollis brand , and have 2.75 inch chambers . However , 1 of the shot guns in the pictures is also a William Cashmore brand exposed hammer side by side shot gun ... which has 3 inch chambers .

@Kawshik Rahman owns a Westley Richards hammerless side by side shot gun , which was made in 1928 . However , that shot gun used to belong to a famous Magistrate ... and Kawshik purchased it , as part of an estate sale as soon as it was offered for sale to Columbia Fire Arms Co.

You should really meet our friend , Enayet . He owns an Issac Hollis 12 Bore double barreled side by side exposed hammer shot gun ... with which he has successfully killed 19 man eating clouded panthers , till now ( among other things ) .

Now , yes . After 1947 ... some side by side shot guns were brought in to the country . But these were not for sale . They were the private property of shikarees who imported them for their own personal privately through TCB ( Trading Corporation Bangladesh ) . Occasionally , these find their way in to circulation if their original owner ( or his family members ) sell the shot gun , afterwards .
I strongly suspect that Panther Shooter's Astra shot gun is 1 such fire arm .

Of course , there is no law prohibiting a shikaree from privately importing a new side by side shot gun from abroad , through TCB ... if they wish . Many shikarees / shooters / fire arms owners ( who would like to own a new side by side shot gun ) obviously do .
2 years ago , fellow forum member @Captain Nwz arranged the import of 5 Beretta Model 486 Parallelo side by side shot guns through BSF ( Bangladesh Shooting Federation ) . They readily sold out .

In 1996 , 8 Remington Model 700 bolt rifles ( chambered in 7×57 mm Mauser calibre ) were imported in to Bangladesh by BSF. Along with 8 boxes of vintage Winchester Super X 175 grain soft point cartridges . They readily sold out .

A citizen can also import a fire arm or ammunition of any of the following calibres from abroad , through TCB :
> .22 Hornet
> .243 Winchester
> 7×57 mm Mauser
> 7 mm Remington magnum

It shall reach you in a maximum of 35 days . This is how @Panther Shooter replenishes his stock of 7 mm Remington magnum cartridges routinely .

Air rifles are extremely popular among teen agers who are under 18 years of age , and who want to learn shooting .
The vintage BRNO .22 Long Rifle calibre bolt rifles are all former properties of rifle clubs .

Very interesting. Thank you Major.

I find the group of calibers permitted for import interesting. The .22 Hornet and the 7x57 are two of my favorites. I use the Hornet and a .223 (5.56) for coyotes and bobcat here in Texas. Regrettably, the Hornet is a great caliber which seems to be slowly passing into history. I gave my son a .243 as his first deer rifle and it has served him well in that role for twenty years. I do not currently own a 7mm mag. I have several friends who are great fans of the caliber. Personally, however, I prefer to grab a fast thirty like my .30 Win Mag or .300 H&H when a bit of reach is needed.

Both Hollis and Cashmore made wonderful guns. My favorite pigeon gun for competitive pigeon shoots is a William Cashmore built before WWI. It is as wonderful a gun today as it was more than a hundred years ago.

@Kawshik Rahman and I corresponded briefly with regard to his beautiful Westley Richards. The gun he acquired is a truly special thing.

I greatly appreciate the contributions you and your colleagues continue to make to this forum. As one old soldier to another, I wish @Kawshik Rahman would rejoin our dialogue.

 

[Major Khan]

Very interesting. Thank you Major.

I find the group of calibers permitted for import interesting. The .22 Hornet and the 7x57 are two of my favorites. I use the Hornet and a .223 (5.56) for coyotes and bobcat here in Texas. Regrettably, the Hornet is a great caliber which seems to be slowly passing into history. I gave my son a .243 as his first deer rifle and it has served him well in that role for twenty years. I do not currently own a 7mm mag. I have several friends who are great fans of the caliber. Personally, however, I prefer to grab a fast thirty like my .30 Win Mag or .300 H&H when a bit of reach is needed.

Both Hollis and Cashmore made wonderful guns. My favorite pigeon gun for competitive pigeon shoots is a William Cashmore built before WWI. It is as wonderful a gun today as it was more than a hundred years ago.

@Kawshik Rahman and I corresponded briefly with regard to his beautiful Westley Richards. The gun he acquired is a truly special thing.

I greatly appreciate the contributions you and your colleagues continue to make to this forum. As one old soldier to another, I wish @Kawshik Rahman would rejoin our dialogue.

Oh , I forgot to mention 1 more thing , Sir.
A civilian can own fire arms of other calibres ( such as .375 Holland & Holland magnum calibre ) as well ( Barring .303 British or 9 mm Parabellum . These were sadly banned ,during the British Colonial Era and the East Pakistani era , respectively ) . However , the only way in which he/ she can replenish their stock of cartridges is my physically going to a foreign country , purchasing some cartridges and bringing them back to Bangladesh . They can bring back 250 cartridges per trip . That is why most fire arms owners ( who do not regularly travel to foreign countries ) prefers calibres which can be imported through TCB . We can legally own up to 6 fire arms , without special permission .

During the time of my career as a professional shikaree .... I always dreamt of seeing a pre 64 Winchester Model 70 chambered in .300 Holland & Holland magnum calibre . However , none of my clients unfortunately brought 1 for shikar . They all preferred the .300 Winchester magnum calibre .

Your William Cashmore brand shot gun makes my beloved " Old Belgian " look so unsophisticated in comparison . Naturally , I still love it ... However .

I see that you have a hammerless model . This must be quite a praise worthy find . All of the William Cashmore brand shot guns , which I have seen in my life till now ... were equipped with external hammers .


I really wish Old Kawshik would re join African Hunting Forums . However , he had 1 aggressive incident with a group of Trolls ( from India ) on these forums , last year ... who accused him of poaching this man eating royal Bengal tiger .

If there is 1 insult which Kawshik could never take ... it is being called a " poacher " .
That is the problem with Indian socialists . Banning shikar and import of fire arms in India was not enough for them . Nowadays , they have to go around harassing anyone on the internet ... who publicly voices their opinions against the 1972 Hunting Ban .

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

My dear friend Panther Shooter
I to went silly and bought a second hand shotgun for use out bush on pigs. It is not as nice as your Astra or red legs beautiful Cashmore but it won't matter if it gets a few marks out bush.
It only cost me $200 from my gunsmith Rob Spittles in Rylestone.
It is a Mossberg Maverick 3 shot bolt action shotgun with 3 inch chamber and a 25 inch modified choke barrel. It should handle anything I want to load it with.
My son would like to try it with 1 and a quarter ounces 3 inch magnum slugs but in a gung that weighs less than 7 pounds the recoil will be horrendous.
He will still use his over and under for trap shooting
Keep safe and well my friend
Bob

 

[Panther Shooter]

UPDATE :
Yesterday, I went to shoot the Astra 12 Bore side by side shotgun at our local shooting range , for the very first time . I was using 2 3/4 inch 32 gram Winchester No. 2 birdshot cartridges . I noticed that whenever I pull the right trigger first , both barrels of the shotgun would discharge simultaneously . @Red Leg Sir was 100 percent correct in his assessment that the Astra shotgun had been shot a little “ Off Face “ .

Thus , I immediately took the damned shotgun back to “ Gun Max “ and I returned it to the shop owner . The owner kindly refunded the money , which I had paid for the Astra . He then offered to sell me a side by side shotgun , from his personal possession . It was a beautiful German GECO side by side shotgun , built in 1938 .
It is equipped with double triggers , 2 3/4 inch chambers , automatic ejectors and 29 inch barrels ( full choke ; both barrels ) . The condition of the shotgun was miraculously impressive . I purchased it for the equivalent of 220 American Dollars , warning the shop owner that he would be in trouble if this German GECO shotgun proved to be defective , as well .

I took the shotgun to our local shooting range a few hours back , to “ test fire “ it . After firing 24 cartridges through it ( 32 gram Winchester No. 7 1/2 cartridges ) , I must say that I am quite impressed . The shotgun locks up extremely tightly and the trigger pulls are extremely crisp !
Some highly educational information from @Major Khan Sir and @Red Leg Sir helped me to appreciate the fact that I truly have a pre-war German gem on my hands , now .

I shall conclude by saying this : I shall never purchase another Astra shotgun , ever again ! They are cheap , Spanish junk ; best forgotten .