H&H buyers guide

[flyfishdoc]

Looking for any books/guides on H&H rifles. Checked Amazon and found books on other brands with history of company/models etc but could not find H&H info.
Would someone please point newbie me in the right direction?
Thanks

 

[mark-hunter]

@flyfishdoc

Holland & Holland, 'The Royal' Gunmaker: The Complete History​

Author Donald Dallas
Available on Amazon

 

[flyfishdoc]

Ty so much! Heading back to Amazon now.

 

[mark-hunter]

Check other books by the same author, He specializes in english fine gun makers

 

[rookhawk]

Looking for any books/guides on H&H rifles. Checked Amazon and found books on other brands with history of company/models etc but could not find H&H info.
Would someone please point newbie me in the right direction?
Thanks

Not trying to pooh-pooh H&H but I need to warn you they are sorely overpriced, more myth than fact.

Some anecdotal info to keep in mind:

-They didn't even have a gun works until 1898. Many of those early guns were made in the trade for low dollars, nicely engraved "London" on the rib, and sold for a premium. People are paying 10x for H&H than the identical next gun made for the trade out of Birmingham.

-Well into the modern era, a pile of their guns were the LOWEST quality working guns you could buy. Those in the late 19th to mid 20th century sold as "Dominion" and "Climax" were C-Grade W&C Scott guns. Still highly functional guns, but literally the identical gun that said "Scott" on them was worth $1200 but when it says H&H people want $8000.

-In the more modern era there were guns made by Webley in the 1950s-1970s sold as H&H. I held one the other day. It was a $1800 Webley but my friend sold it for $3800 because it said "Holland".

They made and retailed some nice stuff, but they sold and retailed a TON OF GUNS. If you compare them to the other top-best makers in British history, the others are truly superior and often less money.

-Boss
-Purdey
-Woodward
-Dickson
-MacNaughton


If you've not heard of any of the above, the reason is they made less guns. Heck, Dickson made only eight 28 bore guns in 200 years of gunmaking. (I've seen 7 of them at once...now hoarded) Woodward made a handful of guns. Boss best 20 gauges are the penultimate sidelock but they made very few, even less with good chokes, long stocks, and 30" barrels.

Every British gun is a delight and arguably the best of their kind in the world, just be careful not to pay 90% for the hype and 10% for the gun. Holland has done an amazing job creating the mystique of a brand in the modern era that has outpaced the logical value of the goods.

 

[Berettaco]

Valid points rookhawk, I’ve always been partial to Woodward - but those above are all fine in their own right

 

[WAB]

I am not the gun historian you are Rookhawk, but I am pretty familiar with most of what is being manufactured as ‘London Best’ currently. I would take a Holland and Holland Royal over any of the competition. A number of years ago we took all of their demo guns to Scotland on a shoot. I have never handled a finer gun than the Royal.

As to production, even with the modern techniques being used on the Sporting O/U, at that time it still had 1000 hours of skilled craftsman labor in it. I don’t know how they make a dime on these guns.

 

[Saul]

For a best shotgun, it would have to be a Purdey for me. However, H&H is still the dream for a double rifle.

 

[baxterb]

I am not the gun historian you are Rookhawk, but I am pretty familiar with most of what is being manufactured as ‘London Best’ currently. I would take a Holland and Holland Royal over any of the competition. A number of years ago we took all of their demo guns to Scotland on a shoot. I have never handled a finer gun than the Royal.

As to production, even with the modern techniques being used on the Sporting O/U, at that time it still had 1000 hours of skilled craftsman labor in it. I don’t know how they make a dime on these guns.

I dont think they make much on the guns.. Beretta owns them now.

Westley Richards, last I heard, was mostly owned by the Qatar royal family. Purdey by Richemont.

The clothing and apparel side of these companies is deceptively lucrative.

 

[rookhawk]

I am not the gun historian you are Rookhawk, but I am pretty familiar with most of what is being manufactured as ‘London Best’ currently. I would take a Holland and Holland Royal over any of the competition. A number of years ago we took all of their demo guns to Scotland on a shoot. I have never handled a finer gun than the Royal.

As to production, even with the modern techniques being used on the Sporting O/U, at that time it still had 1000 hours of skilled craftsman labor in it. I don’t know how they make a dime on these guns.

Your keywords: “currently” and “royal”. I was summarizing 140 years of their history from a vintage perspective into the contemporary era. No doubt about it, a royal #2 is a dazzling gun.

 

[Shootist43]

Flyfishdoc, depending on your interest in purchasing a "bespoke" firearm consider sending "rookhawk" a PM. IMHO he's probably forgotten more about these / those firearms than most others know. If you are looking for "straight from the shoulder info" that is where you will get it.

 

[flyfishdoc]

Ty! At this moment being an Anglophile with a touch of autism I wanted to study the origin and procession of technology Etc.
But if I won the lottery…..??

 

[WAB]

Your keywords: “currently” and “royal”. I was summarizing 140 years of their history from a vintage perspective into the contemporary era. No doubt about it, a royal #2 is a dazzling gun.

Agreed, I recently saw one of the H&H labeled Birmingham guns you mentioned. Asking price was $8,500! I might give $1,500 for it. I called my mate at the H&H shooting grounds. He is a straight shooter, termed it an embarrassing moment in their history or some such thing.

Here is a photo I took on my last visit to the H&H shooting grounds. If I recall correctly roughly $1.2MM in Royals in that case. Out of my league but simply the finest firearms I have ever seen.

 

[WAB]

I dont think they make much on the guns.. Beretta owns them now.

Westley Richards, last I heard, was mostly owned by the Qatar royal family. Purdey by Richemont.

The clothing and apparel side of these companies is deceptively lucrative.

Agreed, although it’s not that deceptive. I shop at Park Street Guns in St Alban’s when I am over. Bob Battaglia runs a fine shop. I bought a top quality shooting coat that will be welcome on any shoot in the land for 350 pounds. A similar coat at Any of the London best shops is north of 2000 pounds. Granted they are beautiful, but seriously?

 

[baxterb]

@WAB

i hear ya! By deceptively I meant they must sell one hell of a lot more of them than we think! I read once the clothing and accessories side of WR was half their business!

i will say that i do really like WRs leather ammo wallets. Are they worth full price? Hard to say - I’ve always picked up like-new ones off eBay! ;-).

I have good taste, but I’m cheap as hell! ;-)

 

[rookhawk]

If you guys think I’m a little rough on old H&H realize its my biases. I grew up poor, I’m frugal as hell. I have no issue spending $20,000 on a gun, but the value must be there. I’m looking for bargains for my money. I’ve seen several H&H royals over the past ten years for under $10,000. They were not good values, had serious issues. One was 8lbs. Another was short barreled. Another was out of proof and had barrel work done to it. Another was restocked and it was just off. Nonetheless, they were under $10,000. I’ve seen some dealers asking $30,000 for better Royals. I’m speaking solely of vintage guns, I’ll never buy a new H&H because of my first two sentences above.

I’ll give you an example of what I think a “deal” is. A friend imported a Dickson 12 bore best sidelock. Mint, 99% condition. 1930s gun. Sublime and original. ONE OWNER gun. Owner never used. Owner died. Estate tossed it about until sold. The gun went for 10,000 pounds to a friend of mine. The reason it was so cheap? Dickson is known for trigger plate round action guns. This one was a best side lock in the H&H Royal #2 engraving pattern style. Easily a $200,000 gun to have made today. That’s the kind of value I like to see. Heck, it sold for literally the same price as the MSRP on my atrocious, “best Spanish gun” that is hardly worth mention.

Really fine guns, especially 12 bores, from best makers, can be found these days for shocking low money. H&H seems to be able to sell off brand recognition in a way the other best-makers cannot. I like getting the most gun I can possibly get for my money.

 

[WAB]

If you guys think I’m a little rough on old H&H realize its my biases. I grew up poor, I’m frugal as hell. I have no issue spending $20,000 on a gun, but the value must be there. I’m looking for bargains for my money. I’ve seen several H&H royals over the past ten years for under $10,000. They were not good values, had serious issues. One was 8lbs. Another was short barreled. Another was out of proof and had barrel work done to it. Another was restocked and it was just off. Nonetheless, they were under $10,000. I’ve seen some dealers asking $30,000 for better Royals. I’m speaking solely of vintage guns, I’ll never buy a new H&H because of my first two sentences above.

I’ll give you an example of what I think a “deal” is. A friend imported a Dickson 12 bore best sidelock. Mint, 99% condition. 1930s gun. Sublime and original. ONE OWNER gun. Owner never used. Owner died. Estate tossed it about until sold. The gun went for 10,000 pounds to a friend of mine. The reason it was so cheap? Dickson is known for trigger plate round action guns. This one was a best side lock in the H&H Royal #2 engraving pattern style. Easily a $200,000 gun to have made today. That’s the kind of value I like to see. Heck, it sold for literally the same price as the MSRP on my atrocious, “best Spanish gun” that is hardly worth mention.

Really fine guns, especially 12 bores, from best makers, can be found these days for shocking low money. H&H seems to be able to sell off brand recognition in a way the other best-makers cannot. I like getting the most gun I can possibly get for my money.

Not at all, your points are well taken. H&H has always made one of most desirable London Best guns. However, they also allowed their name to be used on some ‘trade’ guns. Not a great move as you have pointed out.

However, I have had the privilege of shooting a number of these guns in the field. The most common comparison is Holland & Holland vs Purdey. I am not likely to own either, but having used both in the field, I can assure you I would take the Holland & Holland every time.

I also have to admit a bias for H&H. I have had good friends in the firm for 30+ years and I’ve gotten know their products pretty well. Interesting that given that bias, the only British gun I’ve purchased new was from Rigby!

 

[Saul]

However, I have had the privilege of shooting a number of these guns in the field. The most common comparison is Holland & Holland vs Purdey. I am not likely to own either, but having used both in the field, I can assure you I would take the Holland & Holland every time.

What do you like about the H&H that puts it above the Purdey for you?

 

[rookhawk]

And @WAB I don't follow current production of London makers (way beyond my financial thrift to buy new) but is anyone making a gun in England right now? Rumor had it that A&S in Italy was making the actions in the white for one of the big guys, can't remember if it was Purdey or Holland. This has been happening for a long while, I looked at one in the white a while ago from Italy. I would think that a reasonable premium to a best brand is warranted if lock and barrels are made in England versus engraved, fit, finished, and stocked in England from foreign assemblies. No idea if any of the big guys are still insourced.

 

[WAB]

And @WAB I don't follow current production of London makers (way beyond my financial thrift to buy new) but is anyone making a gun in England right now? Rumor had it that A&S in Italy was making the actions in the white for one of the big guys, can't remember if it was Purdey or Holland. This has been happening for a long while, I looked at one in the white a while ago from Italy. I would think that a reasonable premium to a best brand is warranted if lock and barrels are made in England versus engraved, fit, finished, and stocked in England from foreign assemblies. No idea if any of the big guys are still insourced.

I have personally walked the floor of the factory and seen the actioners filing from billets for the Royals. The sporting o/u is using CNC machines for the shaping and then to skilled actioners for the fitting. I can’t speak to any others.

Much of the work on London guns is cottage work. The friend who engraved my M70, 7x57 (Bliksem) did his apprenticeship at H&H and now works from a shop in his home. Most of the new Rigby’s and many of the Holland’s you see are his work. When he did the work for me the gold inlay was by another ‘cottager’ up the road from him. Will is one on the premier engravers in the world. The value of the work he did for me far exceeds the value of the gun he did it on. However, I love model 70’s and it means a lot to me to have his work on one of my weapons.