Holographic or Red Dot sights

[8x68]

Anybody; especially PH's or Game Wardens, have any experience with using these type of sights on bolt action dangerous game rifles? (As I have indicated in previous posts I'm having a 404 Jeff built on a Stainless Win 70 375H&H barreled action.) I have seen them on doubles but rarely on bolt actions. I can't decide between a 1-4x20 style of scope or a holograhic sight of somekind. I like the Nikon 1-4x20 w/German #4 reticle (too bad it doesn't have an illuminated reticle). Some have suggested a illuminated scope reticle which is a consideration for low light, but I wouldn't think you would want to shoot something big & nasty in low light just in case you lose.
Leupold is showing on their website a new 1.5-5x33 w/Firedot Duplex reticle riflescope.
Any thoughs????
Thank you for your input
Julian

 

[matt85]

hrm your asking about three different kinds of optics here:

-illuminated scope
-red dot sight
-holographic sight

I have used all three and prefer the first two.

I run a Leupold VX-6 1-6x24 with firedot on my 416 RM and while I love it, there are some drawbacks. illuminated scopes tend to be heavy and don't perform as well at close range as a red dot or holographic sights do. however should you need to shoot at over 100 yards then you will be happy to have some magnification.

the difference between holographic and red dot sights is more of a personal opinion. red dot sights are simple, light weight, and usually sport a VERY long battery life. holographic sights tend to weight a little more and don't have the same great battery life but they offer more advanced reticles. in either case both types of sights excel at close range work while giving you a clear view of your surroundings. I would say either of these sights are better choices then scopes when it comes to shots under 100 yards.

-matt

 

[ZG47]

I had a red dot years ago when the batteries died quickly and I now have a holographic sight but it is a bit too delicate for more than possum shooting. A red dot sight would be the most robust and probably idiot proof (think end of day ... tired, thirsty, hungry, etc.) of the three options BUT it might be best to choose a full length version.

I recently came across a discussion, probably on The Firearm Blog (TFB) where a shooter mentioned that if he pointed his Aimpoint compact red dot towards a light source he saw multiple red dots. The site administrator asked a company representative why this occurred and apparently it is a problem that only occurs with the compact versions because the full-size red dot sights are long enough to eliminate the reflection issue.

 

[Curious]

I was, some years ago, seen as an odd duck for putting an EOTech HWS on the front Weaver base of my .375 or .30-06 when I thought circumstances called for it. It seems to be (HWS or red dot) more common now. Very bad weather or close-in danger "call for it," I think.

The choice between current HWS's versus, say, Aimpoints, really is one of preference. They've both become very robust pieces of gear as they've evolved. However, I'd point out that as against battery life and variety of models, the absolute virtues of the EO's are speed onto target, which is a combination of bigger eye box, reticle, and resistance to glare....and functioning well even with a few wet snowflakes or bits of mud on the glass. (I've tested the wet snow bit, though never the mud.) It would be a good practice to try each type on your DG rifle, swinging onto targets, perhaps also shooting a few of them. Neither type (RD or HWS) is best for every use.

 

[Ole Bally]

I have a red dot sight on a .223 for anti poaching use. Problem I find with them is that the dot pretty much covers too much of a dog sized target at about 75 yards. Battery life is another issue. Forget just once to turn the thing off... :-/
Has anyone used a Trijicon unit (spent uranium power source)

 

[Curious]

Ole Bally: The size and brightness are under the purchaser's control pre-purchase. EOTechs in my experience have 1 MOA dots, and a ? 65 MOA circle, or two 1 MOA dots. Mine are all 1 MOA dot in a circle. I use the same reticle, approximately, in the illuminated VX3 1.5-5 Leupolds on two guns. I wish I could say that a 1 MOA dot was a problem for me, but no. I use a Trijicon RMR (LED-powered small RD) on a pistol. I don't like it -it took me ages to get over "hunting the dot" on the RMR. There is choice of dot size in some models, not in others. As for battery life, that's long been the biggest complaint about EO's, but given the cost of 375 H&H cartridges, stocking CR123 (or AA lithium) batteries just never bothered me a bit. I keep spare batteries at hand and change them when the "five days left" blinking starts...or sooner. In recent EO models the battery life is good. Certainly EO batteries will last longer than 99% of safaris.... Since I use EO's for lots of purposes (from action-type competition with 223's, even on shotguns (not for wing-shooting!) to heavy bolt guns in bad weather or close-up 'speed counts' hunting) I'm openly biased. Make sure you get views of people who use the Trijicons and Aimpoints. Many people love them. I use VX6 scopes on my rifles normally.

I'm sorry I can't quickly find it, but one poster recently put up a photo of himself on this site in front of his downed elephant, cut off tail properly in hand, and an EOTech on his rifle.

Julian: I use the old Leupold 1.5-5 illuminated 24mm 30mm tube and like it. It has held up well. I prefer circle dots, but am slowly being pushed to 'firedots.' I think people develop habits, biases. I've got mine. I carry a backup non-illuminated 1.5.5 heavy duplex Leupold often times, because it's bomb proof and light. As for the value of the circle dot or firedot, I think it is real...it helps speed the eye to the focus. People's experiences vary, but I think the value of an EO (or Aimpoint or a firedot) is exactly when your quarry is wounded but not dead, and you'll pay for the animal either way, and the light is fading...or the animal has simply become more dangerous than ever. I don't know the views of others. –In this day and age for a DG rifle I think your choice of HWS or red dot (shop carefully) and a thrifty 1.5-5 or 2-7 scope, a pair, makes a lot of sense for a DG rifle, because few of us use metal sights with the skill of the pre-scope generations. Some do, of course.

I'm not the most experienced at four-legged dangerous game, so take my views with a grain of salt. I nearly always carry an EOTech in my day bag, even if its a scoped day. I put everything on weaver mounts and quick release rings, zero the EO before hand, and I'll pop the scope off in an instant if I think the balance has shifted to fast, close-in, or dangerous priority, or if weather or darkness counsels it. There. I've probably said more than you want to read. Laugh.

 

[Curious]

Matt: I agree with most of your views, but became habituated to EO's. I admit a bias.

 

[Curious]

There are two things very different about choosing a red dot or HWS, when compared to buying a scope, and I think they are under-emphasized: With a scope you buy features, quality, clarity and other optical qualities of glass. We all are buying basically the same thing, plus or minus a few features or glitz. With RD's/HWS's there are two very personal factors. The particular defects of you own eyes (astigmatism, mainly) will play out slightly differently with different RD/HWS designs. Second, you will psychologically react differently to the designs (eye box shape and size, appearance of the unit, and so forth).

It is very important to try a unit on a gun, and preferably shooting some targets, before buying. Don't just carefully line up targets. Swing a real gun fast to a target. Test how naturally and quickly you get on target. This is much more true than when buying a scope. Just holding it up in the store and reading reviews is probably not adequate. Or so I would preach. –On the other hand, laugh, the major brands in their full size units are all good. Whatever you do, don't put a micro model (thinking RMS types) on a DG rifle. If you don't know the phrase "hunting for the dot" have someone show you what it means. I know, I sound like I'm preaching to cannibals....

 

[Ole Bally]

Curious, We just don't have access to the latest toys here...still pretty much back woods! I would dearly love to be able to spend a month or so at Cabellas playing and trying out new toys and gadgets! We see it on the net and think....that'd be nice to have! Advertising is like that!

 

[Curious]

I've been in that boat, Ole, in a different setting. I'm an enthusiast for moving to HWS's or other red dots for DG. I should tell you I'm old enough to find metal sights increasingly unsatisfactory. HWS's completely fixed that for me: I almost feel like I owe them! I've known several Ole's, BTW, up in Scandinavia. Where are you that EOTech's aren't distributed?

I'd also like to get this out: I've learned so much from you contributors about African hunting, rifles, gear, customs...over the last few years...that perhaps I jumped a bit hard on a topic when it was one I'm actually very experienced with. I would have started 'selling' the Aimpoint Hunter model too. Laugh. But I've already said, perhaps, too much. I'm sure I should put up some personal info, but I live mainly in the suburbs of Philadelphia, PA, USA. Politically we, I, fight for our firearm rights, and it has increasingly worked. Yes, laugh, I'm one of those.

Advertising is cruel! I try to be thrifty, so the car and travel ads get to me often enough. My son just finished college last year, though, so perhaps I'll get a respite?

 

[CHARLIE AYCOCK]

Well, I have never been to Africa. Uncle Sam always sent me the other direction, but I was able to hunt some exotic game birds in the Orient. I intend to hunt buffalo somewhere. Africa is the only place you can hunt the notorious Cape Buffalo but there are other buffalo that are bigger but perhaps not as mean or dangerous.
Let me stop jabbering & get to the point. This is the only place I have seen where people have enough experience to answer my question. I am seriously considering a red dot/HWS (whatever that stands for) for my Pedersoli .45-70 double rifle. The trouble with scopes & most red dot sights is they sit too high. I need something that doesn't sit a foot above the bore & doesn't destroy the handling qualities of the gun. Scopes are great on bolt guns but they are kind of like trying to put wings on a frog with a double rifle. It has iron sights that work fine as long as the light is good & you have time to aim, the problem is the light is usually not good & there is usually not much time for aiming. The rifle is well regulated & accurate enough for 100 yd. + shots but I doubt that I will ever shoot at anything over 50 yds. with it. Truth is I have been hunting with a scope sighted .300 Win. since the 60's, that is capable of 500 yd. kills but never killed anything beyond about 200 yds. nor have I been presented with the opportunity. One of the low profile aim dots or the like seems to be the logical solution. So, what I am seeking is recommendations for low profile sights that will approximate the height of the iron sights already on the gun.
That being said, I will probably carry a .416 Ruger with a low power scope on the buffalo hunt but I would like to take my .45-70 along in case I get a chance to use it. It can be handloaded to over 1800 fps with a 400 grain slug & still be within it's proof limits. There are better DG chamberings but used carefully, it will take anything on the planet.

 

[mdwest]

I've always been an aimpoint fan..

They have a "micro" sight, specifically designed for hunting..

http://www.aimpoint.com/product/aimpoint-micro-h-1/

small, lightweight, low profile, with a 2MOA dot (doesn't obscure the target as much as 3 and 4 MOA dot sights).. excellent battery life (50,000 hours of continuous use).. and can easily stand up to the recoil of a .45-70 double..

the downside is.. they aint cheap... youll pay close to $600 for an H1.. and north of $700 for an H2..

 

[Grumulkin]

Are you guys aware that EOTech was sued by the military for fraud? Did you know that not long ago EOTech was offering a refund of the purchase price (no longer offered) of EOTechs because of the fraud issue? They've had various issues such as change of zero with temperature changes and the electrodes for the battery coming loose, etc.

 

[CAustin]

The Luepold matt85 mentions is a great scope!

 

[DWB]

I have an Aimpoint Micro H1 2MOA on my 404 Jeffery, so far I've taken a Warthog at 120m, Zebra at 150m, Waterbuck at about 60m and a Buffalo Cow at 35m on which something went wrong (Not with the sight!) and a whole herd full of shots on the range and at Big Bore shoots.

I love the classic look and feel of open sights, however I have to wear glasses and my rifle's comb is not high enough for me too shoot fast and accurate with the irons.

The Aimpoint offers me everything I wanted from irons, namely fast shooting and ease of operation. I always say the Aimpoint is like Irons, just better! You don't have the bead obscuring the animal at a longer shot, you can pretty much tune the dot with a brightness level suitable for how far you want to shoot. I have plinked with it at 200m no problem.

It has opened up a whole new world of possibilities for me, even though I like to get up close and personal when hunting, the terrain just does not always allow it.

 

[DWB]

Here is a picture of it:

 

[Jwg223]

I have run aim point and eotech on my carbines, but after the last course I took (VTAC Night fighter http://www.recoilweb.com/viking-tactics-streetfighter-nightfighter-48287.html ), and seeing how well low power variables work at night and during the day, close and far, I've switched over to nightforce nxs 1-4 scopes with fc2 reticle. There is a reason this optic has worked for our troops in MOUT as well as longer engagements for the last decade.

I have also used the mk6 leupold, kahles k16i, Swarovski, and trijicon vcog. I prefer the night force because the reticle is very usable Backlit by my wml at night, or bold during the day, even without illumination. Eyebox is very forgiving. It's probably also the most bombproof scope made. 8.8" long is also a very small footprint.

 

[CHARLIE AYCOCK]

Here is a picture of it:

 

[CHARLIE AYCOCK]

DWB,
Nice rifle,
I haven't taken any game over about 450 pounds so I don't have the experience to back up my intuition but IMHO, a rifle in the power range of the .404 Jeffery would also be my choice for a DG rifle. A .458 Lott is more powerful but reports have it that it kills on both ends. That reminds me of a story about a guy hunting in Africa many years ago. The .405 Winchester wasn't a particularly powerful cartridge but the rifle was too light & ill stocked & therefore kicked like a mule. The Chap (to borrow an English expression) asked his white hunter, "will a .405 Winchester kill a rhinoceros?" The reply was, "only if you let the rhinoceros shoot it."
O.K., I,ll get to the point. One of us must have it backwards. Did you perhaps mean that your comb is too high for iron sights? I would put a low powered scope on my double rifle & forget about it if I could mount one low enough. I have also heard that a scope mounted on a double could mess up the regulation.

 

[DWB]

Hi Charlie, for me personally the comb is too low. If i put my head down like I am supposed to then I cannot see my front sight. I don't know if it is the way my cheekbone sits but that is what happens to me.

I have used the 404 with 450gr softs at 2230fps and that was plenty effective!