Hunting Elephant with Super HardCast?

[CZDiesel]

I personally would have never thought that this is something that should be done but talked to a very very knowledgeable loader and Safari veteran and he told me that the Super HardCast bullets in DG cartridges are capable of shooting through an Elephant at any angle!?!?
What say you?

 

[calling4life]

There's a 730gr wide flat nose hardcast for the .458s
And I know there's a 770gr for the 500NE, 500 Jeff guys, could likely be sized down to 505 Gibbs I would imagine. There is another in 715gr for the 505 as well as for the bigger 500 jeffs and such.

Just in case anybody is wondering, I mention these because these would also be going velocities that aren't as high as you'd normally see.

I know there's a 500 Jeff load with that 770gr at 2175fps which is also just a bit over 8k lb/ft energy
The 458 lott 730gr runs about 1800fps for 5250 lb/ft
460 Weatherby load at 2050 for that same bullet for 7k lb/ft
505 Gibbs 715gr load at 2300 for 8397 lb/ft

Just for some examples because there may be worry that speed may kill the idea, but if a person goes very heavy for caliber it seems speed can come down without killing energy.


I have no idea how viable they would truly be for penetrating 18" or so of bone for a frontal brain, would be interesting and I'd imagine these loads would surprise a guy.

Hopefully there are some that have experience with these bigger rounds and these hardcasts, otherwise it'll likely be a bunch of 45/70 related discussion...

 

[CZDiesel]

This is the round I was told about…

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Not advsable.

Unjacketed hardened lead bullets have been used in the late 19th century for elephant hunting with some success. But these were 3-4 Oz hardened conical lead bullets fired from 8-4 bore blackpowder rifles. Even then, frontal brain shots were seldom successful. Arthur H.Neumann began his ivory hunting career with a George Gibbs back action hammer double rifle in .577 Blackpowder Express (650Gr unjacketed lead bullets backed by 6.5 drams of Curtis & Harvey’s #6 coarse grain blackpowder). He was experiencing serious problems whenever frontal brain shots needed to be taken, although he was getting by well with side brain shots.

An unjacketed hard cast lead bullet traveling at a sufficient velocity can cleanly reach the brain of an African elephant with a side brain shot (provided that the bullet passes above the zygomatic arch). But the chances of failure are extremely high when a frontal brain shot becomes necessary.

Only use the best monometal (Rhino, DZOMBO, Northfork, Cutting Edge) or heavily jacketed FMJ solids (Wim Degol) which you can find on African elephant. Wrongly hit, they can die very hard.

 

[BeeMaa]

There are too many better options available when it comes to this. Specifically monolithic solids with a flat meplat like those from Cutting Edge or a Woodleigh Hydro.

I would not trust an unjacketed solid lead projectile to reach the brain regardless of weight, velocity and hardness. It’s not going to be harder than solid brass.

EDIT - @michael458 can school you on why the flat meplat is so important. He has a ton of data on the .458 caliber cartridges.

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/flat-point-vs-round-nose-solids.83686/page-2#post-1258951

 

[CZDiesel]

I believe these bullets are made by CEB though I could be wrong? I’m not saying everyone isn’t correct but I love the knowledge that comes out of these discussions

 

[BeeMaa]

A lot of 45-70 reloaders use the hard cast bullets that are .458 caliber.

As for CEB, I believe all of their bullets are brass and copper.

 

[michael458]

I believe all the CEB, Cutting Edge Bullets, Safari Solids are Brass........ the handgun solids are copper, and there is no such thing as CEB cast anything...... Some of the smaller caliber solids, such as .308 and I believe 6.5, I have some .224 caliber, all those are Copper.

Cast, hard or otherwise would not be suitable for elephant in my opinion, of course I am not up to date on the latest greatest cast, but regardless of Lead cast will flow, deform, and this is not good for deptho of penetration, nor straight line penetration.......

In 2002 I was in Zimbabwe and shooting elephant with 458 Lott (before good modern solids I used a Round Nose 500 gr Barnes, and while I got the elephant, it just was not impressive at all). I also had a Marlin Guide gun in 45/70, and this was a time before good modern bullets for 45/70 as well, I was shooting a 420 Cast Performance at 1920 fps. I had taken a buffalo with it, and I did indeed have some bullet performance issues that nearly caused an issue with the buffalo.

After we had the elephant down, taken with 458 Lott, my PH really liked the little guide gun, so after the head was removed we conducted a test with a side brain shot on the elephant head with the 45/70 and the 420 Cast Performance bullet at 10 yards. The tag says elephant skull, that is not exactly right, as it was the entire head intact. On a side brain, the bullet sheared off the cast meplat, and it turned into a pointy bullet, the bullet did manage to reach the brain, but was found only about 1 inch beyond the brain cavity far side......... This is absolutely not suitable. Cast Performance bullets are known for their hardness I believe...... On other Cast Performance bullets I also found similar behavior anytime bone was involved, the meplat just sheared off basically..........
This is covered in the 8 Factors of Solid Terminal Penetration under #3 Construction and Materials, although Cast or lead is not considered, it would fall under this category of Factors.

In todays world, even with Older Obsolete Cartridges, you do not have to use any Cast or any lead anymore, there is just no reason to do so. 20+ years ago in some cartridges, that might have been the only choice. But today, even if a bullet was not available for some really obscure caliber, you can have them made easy enough.......... If I was in that situation, I would call up Dan at CEB and ask for a specialty bullet in the #13 Solid profile, easy enough. I am sure the same would be available from some other manufactures as well. I recently had a desire for a particular solid in one of the smaller calibers, that was not commonly available, touched base with Dan, and in a few weeks I had 1000 of them.........

 

[matt85]

Unjacketed bullet on elephant? In a 4-bore or maybe an 8-bore. But, I wouldn't try it with anything else.

I'm not sure I would entirely trust my 8-bore, even with 1200gr hard cast bullets. The chance of failure is higher than I feel is safe. If it was just my life on the line, then sure, I'd give it a go. But if the bullet failed and someone else was killed... I would have a hard time living with that.

 

[CZDiesel]

So again I started this thread for discussion and seeing where the technology of cast bullets has come. I personally will not use them on my upcoming hunt but I still love to learn and with new bullet technology coming out all the time it’s worth exploring right…
So I was wrong it’s not CEB making the bullets, it’s Matt’s Bullets.
My understanding is they use a very high alloy content and heat treat for a Super Hard Cast that is supposedly as tough as a solid copper bullet?
Im gonna call them and see what they have to say and if they have some testing for us…

 

[Brian]

Excellent information.

 

[CZDiesel]

This showed up today! So I can at least report on recoil, velocity, and accuracy in my 22” bbl Winchester.
Im not sure how to test penetration that would be relevant? Any ideas?
It’s also interesting to see how the box is not labeled “cast” but “hard cast alloy”? Alloy… I wonder what they are mixing together?
I’ll call the bullet maker to see if they will give me any info and testing on it?

 

[calling4life]

The biggest thing for me is straight-line penetration.

So I test penetration by angling wood and shooting through it.

So, say, a 1" thick piece of wood angled at me at 45 degrees, then there may be several inches of nothing, then another piece of wood angle away from me, then something like a vertical sheet of cardboard/posterboard or the like.

What I want to see is that the bullet went straight through the first piece, didn't deviate, straight through the second piece of wood, didn't deviate, and straight through the cardboard.

The bullet path should be straight, it shouldn't hook down or up or to the side.

Also, the carboard allows me to see if there is any tumbling of the bullet, I also do not want to see that.


One could do a test like that and also have stuff in between the wood to simulate flesh, whether you use a watermelon or wet newspaper or ballistic gel or whatever.


Anyway, so I angle my hard material that is meant to represent, to some degree, bone, I want to know if straight-line penetration will be maintained.


If you are simply looking to test penetration depth, wet newspaper is generally an accepted medium, you'll likely want about 7' of it to make sure and catch the bullet.
Soaked newspaper by the way, not just spray it with water, but soaked through.

 

[towserthemouser]

Not advsable.

Unjacketed hardened lead bullets have been used in the late 19th century for elephant hunting with some success. But these were 3-4 Oz hardened conical lead bullets fired from 8-4 bore blackpowder rifles. Even then, frontal brain shots were seldom successful. Arthur H.Neumann began his ivory hunting career with a George Gibbs back action hammer double rifle in .577 Blackpowder Express (650Gr unjacketed lead bullets backed by 6.5 drams of Curtis & Harvey’s #6 coarse grain blackpowder). He was experiencing serious problems whenever frontal brain shots needed to be taken, although he was getting by well with side brain shots.

An unjacketed hard cast lead bullet traveling at a sufficient velocity can cleanly reach the brain of an African elephant with a side brain shot (provided that the bullet passes above the zygomatic arch). But the chances of failure are extremely high when a frontal brain shot becomes necessary.

Only use the best monometal (Rhino, DZOMBO, Northfork, Cutting Edge) or heavily jacketed FMJ solids (Wim Degol) which you can find on African elephant. Wrongly hit, they can die very hard.

@Hunter-Habib do you have any experience or comment on the use of Woodleigh Hydrostatically Stabilized Solids (say for example in 470NE or similar caliber) for elephant?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

@Hunter-Habib do you have any experience or comment on the use of Woodleigh Hydrostatically Stabilized Solids (say for example in 470NE or similar caliber) for elephant?

Excellent straight line penetration. I highly recommend this one.

 

[Cheesehead]

I'm definitely curious to see what your testing shows of your able to test this load. If you can Chronograph it, that'd be interesting too. It looks like a pretty hot load.

 

[CZDiesel]

Just talked to Jason at Aria and he told me that the 575gr Super Hardcast round will easily penetrate a Elephant skull at any angle and punch through the body at any angle…
He told me that the alloy and heat treatment make it as hard as a Brass Solid!

 

[BlueFlyer]

He told me that the alloy and heat treatment make it as hard as a Brass Solid!

I would believe it.
I have no experience of bullet performance on elephants, but I do have expereince of hard cast bullets. As has been stated, most of that is with a 45/70. I have never recovered a hard cast bullet from any game as they go straight through.
I have used linotype alloy and then dropped the bullets immediately out of the mould and into a bucket of water. They come out very hard, no idea how hard as I don't have a hardness tester. When I have dug the fired bullets out of a dirt bank they usually come out perfect, without any deformation. If they happen to hit a rock then they do not mushroom, the tip shatters. The shank remains the original diameter with the tip erroded. This was with 420gr projectile @ 1,800fps.
Initially I was using soda can gas checks, but have much better success using paperpatch at higher velocities. Accuracy was typically 2" to 3" at 100yrds.
Below is a photo of my 45/100 with a 480gr soft paper patched bullet. The paper used is just normal office printer paper, which gave consistent results. When the bullet leaves the barrel you get a fan distribution of paper petals, which leaves the bullet to fly nude.