Info on Mannlicher Schoenauer carbine

[KDeter]

I am looking for information on what I think is a MS 1903 carbine. The overall length is just under 39 inches, with the barrel length just under 18 inches. The bolt is a straight butter knife type. The butt has a plastic end cover. There’re are no inscriptions on the top or left side of the receiver, although the left side may have been removed. It has a single trigger.

There are numbers visible on the right side of the receiver and barrel above the wood stock: NPf and 1XXX.34 in both places. Also on the barrel: 6.8 then 10.0g M.G.

There are also symbols on the left hand side of the barrel just forward of the receiver.

There appears to be a G inscribed in the indentation of the bolt visible when the bolt arm is down. The G is rotated down.

Any comments or confirmation on the carbine identification will be appreciated.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

It's absolutely a Mannlicher Schoenauer, stock appears to be an original Steyr MS stutzen (full stocked carbine).

The model designation has been stippled over (front receiver ring) and the proof marks visible above wood appear to be re-proofs dating to 1934.

It could be a very well 'sporterized' military Y1903 or Y1903/14 or a rebored and reproofed M1903. The NPf proof is from Ferlach, every original proof mark I've seen on an MS has been from Vienna (NPv).

It would be interesting to see if any traces of previous proofs may be visible 'below the wood'.
Be sure to use proper fitting (thin bladed) drivers for disassembly.

Typical original proof marks on pre WW2 MS: 411.08 indicates 411th arm 'nitro proofed' (smokeless powder) at Vienna in 1908. NPv is Vienna proof, C6.5 indicates bore (6.5 = M1903).

Pre WW2 Austrian proofs

 

[Denvir Tire]

I don't know exactly what it is, but I want one....

 

[Hunt anything]

I don't know exactly what it is, but I want one....

Me to!

 

[SaintPanzer]

Yes, it's an MS, but clearly it has been modified. The reproofing, and the stippling on the receiver make me believe this.

Is it an M1903? Not sure. I would certainly have the chamber cast.

 

[KDeter]

Chamber casting plan is underway. Will advise with the results. I do not yet have the finer screwdrivers to remove the barrel. The 6.8 marking on the barrel is different than I expected. I thought it should be 6.7 for the MS 6.5 x 54. Is that acceptable for that caliber, or is there any possible alternative calibers for the “possible” 6.8 barrel diameter if that is what it is.

 

[KDeter]

Disassembled barrel from stock. There were no numbers below the wood other than a zero between the magazine frame and the stock screw. Quite surprising! Any comments would be appreciated.

 

[Major Bonkers]

Mr. Rothhammer beat me to it. It is a Mannlicher-Schönauer stutzen, 1903 model (almost certainly). I suspect that it will be in 6.5x54 calibre.

Terry Wieland waxes eloquent on this rifle in his book 'Great Hunting Rifles' (cheaply available from Amazon).

Spare parts available from Herr Miedler: https://shop.miedler-waffen.at/Mannlicher-Schoenauer. See also this forum: https://www.africahunting.com/threads/new-mannlicher-schoenauer-action.39602/

The plastic on the end of the stock is after-market.

You ought to check the barrel throat for 'cordite burn' (erosion), which is almost inevitable.

Herr Miedler will sell you the proper double trigger. He will also sell you a shotgun safety (like the Ruger M77 Mk 1), which makes it even more handy.

This is the finest sporting rifle ever made. Karamojo Bell shot elephant with them, but more realistically it is good for all plains game. The 6.5x54 calibre is ideally mated to this rifle; it has a very low recoil (it can be shot accurately standing) and a thumping 'energy dump' on the other side. It does not need a telescopic sight.

Starting price for what you have is £1,500/ $1,850 (in the UK, at least).

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Disassembled barrel from stock. There were no numbers below the wood other than a zero between the magazine frame and the stock screw. Quite surprising! Any comments would be appreciated.

As Major Bonkers implied, the trigger guard is the type used for double triggers (I had noticed that but failed to mention in previous reply).

The lack of Austrian proofs 'below the wood' along with removed / obscured model designation makes me suspect strongly that the arm has been rebored to a non standard chambering. An original 1903 would be 6.5X54 whether manufactured as military (Y1903) or civilian (M1903).

View these threads for information: https://www.africahunting.com/threa...908-m1910-m1924-m1925-or-high-velocity.47277/

Original Austrian proof marks on M1903, Steyr s/n 4143, 411th arm to be 'nitro proofed' at Vienna in 1908

Mannlicher Schoenauer proprietary cartridges:
M1903 - 6.5X54 (DWM 477), M1905 - 9X56 (DWM 491E), M1908 - 8X56 (DWM 528), M1910 - 9.5X57 (DWM 531)

Note difference between part # 49 (guard for double trigger) and #49/1 (guard for single trigger).

 

[KDeter]

Thanks Brian Rothhammer and Major Bonkers for your comments and advice. Still waiting for material for the chamber casting; took the carbine barrel to my gunsmith to check about erosion/cordite burn. He said the barrel was in very good condition.

I was looking at the original Austrian proof marks shown from Brian Rothhammer’s barrel picture and the rough portion just below them in the picture above. I have the same rough section, but no serial number or proof marks. Also, there are no inserts for cleaning rods behind the plastic at the end of the stock.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Thanks Brian Rothhammer and Major Bonkers for your comments and advice... Also, there are no inserts for cleaning rods behind the plastic at the end of the stock.

An original pre WW2 MS stock would have three cavities, one for rods and two for spare cartridges, that would be revealed when trap door of steel buttplate is opened.

A stock without such cavities is either later issue (M1950, M1952) or aftermarket replacement.

 

[MS 9x56]

What is the LOP of this rifle?

 

[KDeter]

The LOP on this carbine is about 13.5 inches.

 

[F. Vaccaro]

The only comment I can make is, beautiful, congratulations!

 

[KDeter]

Finally received the chamber casting results. The gunsmith confirmed that the carbine is 6.5 x 54 MS caliber. He reported that the barrel was in great condition and there was very little erosion in the throat, and the lands and grooves were in great condition as well.

The carbine had not been used since the mid 1980s, and possibly longer, because of the caliber was not properly identified. I did clean it up periodically.

Thanks for all of the assistance in identifying this carbine.

 

[steve white]

Is there anything written into the molding of the plastic butt plate....say like the word, "Sequoia"?

 

[KDeter]

No markings on the butt plate (on either side) other than the horizontal lines on the back (visible) sides

 

[Bapu]

Have the same caliber and shot a maneater leopard with it.

 

[KDeter]

Bapu,

Great news that you could pass your comment on! I am now too old to try it myself.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Is there anything written into the molding of the plastic butt plate....say like the word, "Sequoia"?

The 'Sequoia' rifles and stutzen were M1924, chambered in .30-'06 for appeal to the U.S. market.

Sequoia Importing Co. ordered a large batch (numbers vary per source), they did not sell well, many went back to Steyr (or never left) and were stamped over as 'KAL.7.62X63' or rebarreled to chamberings more popular in Europe.

The M1924 had a longer 'action' than previous models, production continued in various chamberings without model designation. Collectors refer to such arms as 'M1925', Stoeger called them 'High Velocity'.

M1924 'Sequoia' MS had the trap door steel buttplate with cleaning rod storage. Sequoia was marked on barrel.

Sequoia #265

M1924 restamped for European sale