JW Tolley double rifle .450 No. 2 Nitro Express

[Quaticman]

I have come across a beautiful, classic double rifle for sale chambered in .450 No. 2 Nitro Express by British gunmaker JW Tolley. It is a hammer gun utilizing a Jones underlever and is stocked with an outstanding piece of walnut.

Can anyone tell me anything about the maker or the chambering?

 

[Aaron N]

I’ve seen the ad as well! Good looking gun!

Hopefully some of the English double guys on here can shed some light!

 

[Shootist43]

Rookhawk, you are hereby summoned to comment!!

 

[crs]

Where is Cal Pappas when you need him?

? probably off hunting !

 

[Pheroze]

The encyclopedic source of firearm related information @Red Leg my have some insight too?

 

[Quaticman]

Here is some more information.

 

[IvW]

Beautiful rifle and excellent chambering. I am currently looking at a Pedersoli double hammer gun in 45-70 however trying to find out about re-chambering to 450 No. 2. I know it is not near the same class as what you have here but is a possibility of getting into a double rifle at a good price.

Congratulations, beautiful rifle..

 

[Red Leg]

One of Pondoro Taylor's favorite calibers. 480 gr bullet at 2175 or so would be a great shootable caliber. Hammers take a bit of practice. There is no what we now call a "traditional" safety. For a deliberate shot over sticks not an issue, but in a follow-up you do not want to be tripping through brush with those hammers back. Learning to bring those things back simultaneously with your thumb as the rifle comes up takes a lot of practice and muscle memory.

Without having it in hand, I can't really tell you anything about this specific rifle. Tolley built good guns. The stock is obviously new or restored, but that is not necessarily a big deal. As long as it's solid, the critical pieces are the action and barrels. The Jones under lever is probably the most solid lock-up ever created. It is slow, so it was soon eclipsed by top-lever designs, but they rarely shoot loose. An honest appraisal of the barrels is essential. The barrel soldering is critical and often a problem on a hundred plus year old gun or rifle. Cordite was extremely corrosive. You need an honest appraisal of the rifling. It needs to be virtually perfect. The stock refinishing or restocking means it was likely well used and so that barrel condition is even more critical.

But if it all checks out, it would be a fine buffalo rifle for someone comfortable with the manual of arms for a hammer gun.

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

Great double rifle.

 

[Deleted member 46122]

Where is Cal Pappas when you need him?

? probably off hunting !

I will actually see Cal Pappas today and possibly do some shooting with him on Sunday. I will be happy to mention the post.

 

[Thomas Rutledge]

I believe 1895 is before the nitro era. Could this be better described as a BPE?

 

[crs]

Thanks John.

Please tell Cal hello for me. He met me and my wife one morning in Anchorage for a short visit and then dropped us off at the cruise ship location in a local hotel. We had become acquainted on another forum and knew some folks; nice guy. Bought one of his books too.
Charles Shelton

 

[grand veneur]

I believe 1895 is before the nitro era. Could this be better described as a BPE?

Correct , the cartridge 450 N°2 NE came onto the market in 1903.

This rifle was restored , possibly Nitro re-proofed , or there is a misunderstanding. Something like that happens !

I held in my hands a old DR that was sold as a DR caliber 577 Nitro Express 3 1/4 -inch but was in reality an DR caliber 577 BPE 3 1/4-inch . Cartridges 577 NE 3 1/4-inch were regularly fired with this rifle without causing any damage.

 

[Red Leg]

Correct , the cartridge 450 N°2 NE came onto the market in 1903.

This rifle was restored , possibly Nitro re-proofed , or there is a misunderstanding.

Something like that happens !

I held in my hands a old DR that was sold as a DR caliber 577 Nitro Express 3 1/4 -inch but was in reality an DR caliber 577 BPE 3 1/4-inch . Cartridges 577 NE 3 1/4-inch were regularly fired with this rifle without causing any damage.

Reproofed or rebarreled. Good catch. A good photograph of the barrel flats would tell the story.

 

[Deleted member 46122]

Thanks John.

Please tell Cal hello for me. He met me and my wife one morning in Anchorage for a short visit and then dropped us off at the cruise ship location in a local hotel. We had become acquainted on another forum and knew some folks; nice guy. Bought one of his books too.
Charles Shelton

I will be happy to do that. Cal and his Mother will be driving up to my cabin in Trapper Creek, Alaska tomorrow, but my wife and I will pop in to see him this morning on our drive up.
We plan to shoot if I can shovel the snow from my shooting bench. We can snowshoe to the back stops
I’ll send photos of course.

 

[grand veneur]

It's a beautiful DR , well restored , too good restored what concern the stock. In those times nobody attached a importance on a beautiful stock.

 

[grand veneur]

I mean with regard to wood , not the design of the stock.

 

[One Day...]

.450 #2

When the black powder era ended and the cordite era started, at the end of the 19th century / start of the 20 th century, a number of cartridges that were black powder (BP) cartridges were converted to cordite. As everyone here knows, BP-proofed rifles were changed for cordite-proofed rifles, some BP-proofed rifles were reproofed for cordite, and some BP-proofed rifles were re-barreled for cordite, especially rifles with Damascus steel barrels.

However, cordite was very sensitive to temperature and pressure could spike in Africa, resulting in sticky extraction. This caused issues with cases that were originally designed for BP and that typically had fairly thin walls and rims.

The concept behind the #2 cartridges (.450 #2 and its replacement .475 #2 when .450 caliber ammo was outlawed in India and the Soudan) was to produce massive cases with higher volume, thicker walls, and very much thicker rims that could not be sheared off by extractors. As a consequence of the volume of the case, the ammo operated at lower pressure (13 tons for the .450 #2 instead of 15 .5 tons for the H&H 500/.450, and 17 tons for the Rigby .450 straight case), and as a consequence of walls and rim thickness, extraction was worry free. In terms of performance on game, there was no difference.

To this day, the .450 #2 retains a bit of a cult status (it is for example the favorite cartridge of George Caswell, the owner of Champlin Firearms) but there is no readily available commercial ammo for it, and cases are hard to come by. I owned a .450 #2 in the 1980's, a beautiful Belgian pre-WWII Jules Bury, but ammo procurement was a constant nightmare and George Caswell made me an offer I could not refuse...

A much younger One Day... circa 1980's with his Jules Burry #2


I still have a few A Square .450 #2 shells:

.470 NE on the left compared to .450 #2 NE on the right. Observe the much larger case capacity of the .450 #2 and the extraordinarily thick rim. Case walls are also thicker.

As Red Leg noted it was indeed one of the favorite cartridges of "Pondoro" John Taylor, who owned no less than 4 double rifles in this chambering, but he also admitted that in addition to the objectively lower chamber pressure of the massive shell (which all but guaranteed extraction), the cartridge also had an indisputable psychological appeal, although it provided ballistics identical to those of other cordite .450 shells.

Owing to its low chamber pressure, the .450 #2 was the safest .450 cordite ammo for re-barreling or reproofing black powder earlier rifles.

 

[Deleted member 46122]

.450 #2

When the black powder era ended and the cordite era started, at the end of the 19th century / start of the 20 th century, a number of cartridges that were black powder (BP) cartridges were converted to cordite. As everyone here knows, BP-proofed rifles were changed for cordite-proofed rifles, some BP-proofed rifles were reproofed for cordite, and some BP-proofed rifles were re-barreled for cordite, especially rifles with Damascus steel barrels.

However, cordite was very sensitive to temperature and pressure could spike in Africa, resulting in sticky extraction. This caused issues with cases that were originally designed for BP and that typically had fairly thin walls and rims.

The concept behind the #2 cartridges (.450 #2 and its replacement .475 #2 when .450 caliber ammo was outlawed in India and the Soudan) was to produce massive cases with higher volume, thicker walls, and very much thicker rims that could not be sheared off by extractors. As a consequence of the volume of the case, the ammo operated at lower pressure (13 tons for the .450 #2 instead of 15 .5 tons for the H&H 500/.450, and 17 tons for the Rigby .450 straight case), and as a consequence of walls and rim thickness, extraction was worry free. In terms of performance on game, there was no difference.

To this day, the .450 #2 retains a bit of a cult status (it is for example the favorite cartridge of George Caswell, the owner of Champlin Firearms) but there is no readily available commercial ammo for it, and cases are hard to come by. I owned a .450 #2 in the 1980's, a beautiful Belgian pre-WWII Jules Bury, but ammo procurement was a constant nightmare and George Caswell made me an offer I could not refuse...

View attachment 321034
A much younger One Day... circa 1980's with his Jules Burry #2


I still have a few A Square .450 #2 shells:

View attachment 321033
.470 NE on the left compared to .450 #2 NE on the right. Observe the much larger case capacity of the .450 #2 and the extraordinarily thick rim. Case walls are also thicker.

As Red Leg noted it was indeed one of the favorite cartridges of "Pondoro" John Taylor, who owned no less than 4 double rifles in this chambering, but he also admitted that in addition to the objectively lower chamber pressure of the massive shell (which all but guaranteed extraction), the cartridge also had an indisputable psychological appeal, although it provided ballistics identical to those of other cordite .450 shells.

Owing to its low chamber pressure, the .450 #2 was the safest .450 cordite ammo for re-barreling or reproofing black powder earlier rifles.

I had a 450 #2 double on me a few months back. I haven’t been the same since!
It’s still my favorite

 

[Quaticman]

Here is a photo of the barrel flats.