Krieghoff Big Five vs. Heym 88 or 89 vs. Blaser S2

[yhc]

I have been reading about more "affordable" DR lately. What piques my interests are mostly German DRs as I am not too familiar with French or Italian made DRs and I don't want to mortgage my house for a British DRs.

So between Krieghoff Big Five vs. Heym 88 or 89B vs. Blaser S2 which one would you pick? If you have any specific reason(s), I am all ears.

Regards,

yhc

 

[Ridgewalker]

yhc, this looks like a very interesting post I’m going to follow! I have a Krieghoff drilling which I really like and I’ve had a Merkel drilling, but I’ve never owned nor handle any German double rifles. I’ve only played/shot Chiappa and Sabatti 9.3x74R doubles.
Always wanted a 450/400.

 

[MMAL]

I have had or have a kreighoff and s2. Both shot great and I elected to keep the kreighoff purely for the caliber. 500/416 ne is easier than 500 ne. But between the three you choose you will not go wrong at all. All three are quality makers of double rifles. If price was not the decision maker I would choose kreighoff or heym only because blaser stopped making the s2 thus eventually parts and service will be a problem.

 

[yhc]

I have had or have a kreighoff and s2. Both shot great and I elected to keep the kreighoff purely for the caliber. 500/416 ne is easier than 500 ne. But between the three you choose you will not go wrong at all. All three are quality makers of double rifles. If price was not the decision maker I would choose kreighoff or heym only because blaser stopped making the s2 thus eventually parts and service will be a problem.

I assume your vote is for Krieghoff then? If you don’t mild please feel free to cast your vote above.

 

[Tanks]

I just bought a Heym 88B PH, should have it in my hands in a couple of weeks.

I still can't figure out the difference between 88B & 89B. Descriptions are exactly the same and the detail pics on the web pages are identical.

 

[yhc]

I just bought a Heym 88B PH, should have it in my hands in a couple of weeks.

I still can't figure out the difference between 88B & 89B. Descriptions are exactly the same and the detail pics on the web pages are identical.

I found this information online.

The 89B has:

• A more British styled action (square back and straight sides), similar to a pre-war Webley & Scott.
• A long trigger-guard that extends all the way down the grip to the steel grip cap
• Disk-set (removable) strikers
• A shorter, and more slender forend than the 88B
• The comb of the stock more tapered (from front to back)
• A more open grip than the 88B
• A smaller (circumfrence) grip than the 88B
• A safety design more similar to the old Webley & Scott

 

[Red Leg]

I own an S2 with 500-416, .375, and 30-06 barrels. I have killed buffalo at 60 yards with it and a plains game beyond 225. It is supremely accurate. It is designed to be used with ascope, and yet, also has truly superb open sights for follow-up.

I think the K-gun is equally good, but checked the Blaser because there are still some wonderful deals out there of new old stock on this unfortunately discontinued rifle.

 

[Bushpig4Ever]

I have a Krieghoff Big Five and love it. Heym is excellent of course but a Blaser double? Never!

 

[Pondoro]

The Heym 88 and 89B are great...especially the latter, but they are very expensive.. I voted Krieghoff because I have one in .470 that I am very pleased with....it is practically as good as the Heyms with the added safety cock-decock feature (as the Blaser S2..). The Krieghoff is moderately priced compared with Heym..

 

[One Day...]

Hello yhc;

So between Krieghoff Big Five vs. Heym 88 or 89B vs. Blaser S2 which one would you pick? If you have any specific reason(s), I am all ears.

I own a Krieghoff Big Five in .470 NE and am very happy with it. It shoots very well (1.5" to 2" at 25, 50, 75 yards with left barrel in the left hole and right barrel in the right hole, i.e. it neither crosses nor diverges) both its regulation load (Federal Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer) and Hornday DGS / DGX Bonded.

Setting aside the personal notions of likes and dislikes, and summarizing objective characteristics:

Heym

• Heym 88 and 89 are the "same" rifle, except the 88 has a definite German flair while the 89 was designed to be a British classic rifle lookalike. Either Heym are solid, proven, accurate rifles. The choice between the two is purely style.
• On the technical side, all Heym double rifles are equipped with intercepting sears. This prevents the possibility of the rifle "doubling" on you (shooting both barrels together) but, ugly truth be told, most doubling incidents with American shooters are caused by the shooter wrestling with two triggers, not the rifle. I know that this statement will likely be controversial, but it has been shown time and again that rifles doubling with certain people do not double with others. 'nough said...

Blaser

• Blaser S2 are characterized by an entirely different locking mechanism which is very ingenious and totally reliable, and by a different technique of joining the barrels at the muzzle. A Blaser S2 goes the opposite way from a Heym 89. While the 89 emulates a classic British rifle, the S2 clearly does not. Some love it. Some hate it. Blaser are solid, proven, accurate rifles.
• The S2 does not have a traditional safety but a cocker/decocker mechanism. This allows the rifle to be carried fully loaded but fully safe since the striker springs are not under tension. Some love it. Some hate it. More about this later.
• HOWEVER, what I personally believe killed the S2 is that its decocking mechanism automatically decocks both barrels whenever the rifle is opened, which means that in a quick reload the rifle needs to be manually recocked before it can be fired. Many, if not most, if not all - aside from dedicated S2 owners - see this as a fatal engineering flaw.

Krieghoff

• The Krieghoff Big Five is a cross-over, in a way, between the Heym and the S2. Its mechanism and barrels are typical traditional double rifle engineering, but it offers a cocker/decocker mechanism. As noted, this allows the rifle to be carried fully loaded but fully safe since the striker springs are not under tension. As mentioned, some love it, some hate it. Krieghoff are solid, proven, accurate rifles.
  
• The big difference between the S2 and the "K gun" - as it is affectionately nicknamed - is that the K gun decocker does NOT decock automatically when the rifle is opened. This makes a quick reload identical to all other double rifles quick reloads: break open, flick the empties out, dump two rounds in the breech, close the rifle, shoot. Many, if not most, if not all - aside from dedicated S2 owners - see this as a massive advantage over the S2. The classic discussion goes: "how many time in your life does this matter?" on one end, and "the only one time in your life it may matter may save your life" on the other end. I will let both sides happily argue the point...

Regarding safety vs. cocker/decocker in general, the argument goes as follows. On one end: "a classic safety is faster and smoother." This is undeniably true; it does take some physical effort to compress both barrels striker springs when cocking the rifle. On the other end, the argument goes: "as proven time and again by accidents in the bush, the "African carry" makes it dangerous to carry a fully loaded traditional double rifle, safety or no safety." This too is also undeniably true... This did not matter in the good old days when the rifle was carried by the gun bearer walking first and ahead of the hunter, so the hunter could just reach forward and grab the rifle from the bearer's shoulder, instantly ready to engage, but it does matter in modern days when three or four persons (1 tracker, 1 PH, 1 client, 1 apprentice or assistant PH) walk in single file each with a rifle on their shoulder aimed at the person ahead of them.

I personally do not suffer from arthritis in my right thumb, and I spent the time to acquire a new muscle memory when I transitioned from my previous pre-WW II Belgian Jules Burry .450 #2 with classic safety to my K gun .470 with cocker/decocker. Cocking the rifle when I shoulder it is now as automatic and as easy to me as flicking the safety on my sidelock double 20 gauge Merkel when after quails. I personally see the cocker/decocker as the safest option by far. I am personally not comfortable walking in front of someone who carries a fully loaded and cocked double rifle (or bolt rifle) on the shoulder, barrel(s) forward pointing at my back or head, and I know several PH who simply refuse to do it and ask the client to not load the rifle until the final approach. A S2 or K gun mitigates this issue. To each their own...

I am not too familiar with French or Italian made DRs and I don't want to mortgage my house for a British DRs.

The two French double rifles you really want to also consider are:

Verney Carron

• The VC is produced using the Demas design (VC purchased Demas) characterized by an action that features 3 parallel lumps & bites rather than one massive one. Whether this is actually stronger or provide any meaningful design advantage can probably be argued forever. Suffice it to say that VC are solid, proven, accurate rifles.

Chapuis

• The "Dean" of Double Rifles dealers in the US, George Caswell of Champlin Firearms says of the Chapuis: "We feel so strong about these guns mechanically that we will take care of any problems for as long as you own it, except the wood. We have had every current made boxlock double rifle in our shop, have shot them all, worked on all, had all of them apart and we know for fact that you can't buy a better one for the money than a Chapuis. We regulate, re-joint, do triggers, re-barrel and hunt with and shoot a lot of double rifles. We flat know this is one tough, attractive, high precision, go to Africa and have money left for the second Buffalo type of gun. I challenge you to show me a better current double rifle for the money." This is no faint praise, and what else could I add...

I hope this was useful

 

[IvW]

They are all good, depends on personal preference.

I would buy a VC if buying a double.

 

[Opposite Pole]

One Day... summarised it very well.

One rarely mentioned disadvantage of the Blaser S2’s self-decoking on open feature, that you should be aware of, is how loud that process is. You can of course decock it first but if you don’t it really is very loud.

Visually I much prefer the look of Heym 88B vs the newer 89B but beauty is in the eye of beholder.

I shoot the K-gun (in 470NE and 9.3x74R) and am very satisfied with it. Mine has the “Intelligent Ejectors” feature. Break the rifle cocked and the spent shell or shells are ejected, brake it uncocked and they are extracted. Ejector vs extractor debate? Why not have both available a thumb press away.

 

[yhc]

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. Keep them coming folks.

I have a Krieghoff Big Five and love it. Heym is excellent of course but a Blaser double? Never!

Bushpig4Ever, may I ask for your reason as to why “never”?

Regards,

 

[Frederik]

I would choose between the Krieghoff and VC.

With the Blaser just like their rifles don't look classic so does their doubles they work but it's not a double compared to the rest.

 

[The Engineer]

One Day gave a very good synopsis.

On the Heym the intercepting sears prevent jarring off in case of shock to the rifle such as being dropped. tripping, falling over. etc. As noted, the intercepting sears will not prevent both barrels from firing is the triggers are strummed on recoil.

Having owned Merkels, Chapuis, Sabatties, and Heyms I have settled personally settled on the Heyms as I am the one with arthritis and have difficulty cocking the Kgun from the shoulder. I have also noticed the more open grip on my Heym 89B in 450NE prevent the second finger from PAINFULLY impacting on the trigger guard as it did on the Merkel and Heym 89B in 470NE. This issue can be easily resolved with the addition of the rubber pad on the back of the trigger guard that is sold for use on double barrel shotguns.

From my standpoint I would highly suggest you handle the rifles in which you have an interest before making a decision. If you can shoot them so much the better as issues such as stock fit vs. sight alignment/recoil can only be fully explored by shooting.

Enjoy your quest.

 

[Bushpig4Ever]

Bushpig4Ever, may I ask for your reason as to why “never”?

I’m quite fussy, very fond of beautiful rifles. There is nothing wrong with the Blaser DB - except that the rifle, in my humble opinion, is extremely ugly. Well, some people like it, it’s really a personal thing.

 

[chashardy]

I agree with One Day's post above. I did a lot of online research before purchasing a Chapuis double in 375H&H and as I have posted on here before, I really love the gun. I've handled, but not shot, Heym at their booth at DSC convention, as well as Verney Carron. I also looked at a Holland & Holland double at their gallery in Dallas. The Holland & Holland is an amazing work of art, but over $100,000. If I were in the market for a new double and my budget was around $20,000, I would probably go with the VC. Their round action model is a beautiful rifle and feels great in the hand. I liked the Heym, but have always favored sleeker Italian or French design, i.e. I am a Beretta guy for shotguns rather than Kreighoff. Just personal preference. If my budget was no more than $15,000 I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Chapuis.
I had seen the quote from George Caswell at Champlin Arms that One Day quotes above and I've met George (bought a shotgun from him). The well-respected gunsmith J.J. Perrodeaux is in the same shop as Champlin and they work closely together and their recommendation of Chapuis is something to respect. A bit more about Chapuis: the small, French company was acquired last year by Beretta, so they will have Beretta standing behind them for the future. William Larkin Moore in Phoenix is a Chapuis dealer also and I bought my rifle second hand from them at a substantial savings over the price of a new one.

 

[IvW]

I agree with One Day's post above. I did a lot of online research before purchasing a Chapuis double in 375H&H and as I have posted on here before, I really love the gun. I've handled, but not shot, Heym at their booth at DSC convention, as well as Verney Carron. I also looked at a Holland & Holland double at their gallery in Dallas. The Holland & Holland is an amazing work of art, but over $100,000. If I were in the market for a new double and my budget was around $20,000, I would probably go with the VC. Their round action model is a beautiful rifle and feels great in the hand. I liked the Heym, but have always favored sleeker Italian or French design, i.e. I am a Beretta guy for shotguns rather than Kreighoff. Just personal preference. If my budget was no more than $15,000 I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Chapuis.
I had seen the quote from George Caswell at Champlin Arms that One Day quotes above and I've met George (bought a shotgun from him). The well-respected gunsmith J.J. Perrodeaux is in the same shop as Champlin and they work closely together and their recommendation of Chapuis is something to respect. A bit more about Chapuis: the small, French company was acquired last year by Beretta, so they will have Beretta standing behind them for the future. William Larkin Moore in Phoenix is a Chapuis dealer also and I bought my rifle second hand from them at a substantial savings over the price of a new one.

Chapuis have real shite after sales service....in SA anyway, quite the opposite of VC who will also have your stock made to measure.

 

[Red Leg]

As I have written here before, the Blaser S2 does indeed look anything but traditional. However, like its stablemate the R8, its ergonomics are perfect - not good - perfect. It is also designed to use a scope and is accurate enough to take advantage of it. Should a follow-up be required, the scope comes off in about 2 seconds leaving superb open sights for a close encounter in the thick stuff. Set up as a .375 my rifle shoots the 300 gr TSX as loaded by Hendershots sub-moa from each barrel and a 2.5 inch composite group at 100 meters. I have taken game out to nearly 250 meters with it. The 30-06 is of equally boring accuracy. I am sure the 500-416 would as well, but I have it set up with a red dot for seventy-meters. The ejection is simply a different manual of arms. Open quietly - simply decock. Like all Blasers, it has fabulous triggers. And unlike a traditional Anson & Deeley boxlock, it will never shoot loose or go off face. Regrettably, the people who write about doubles tend to be traditionalists. With Terry Wieland leading the charge, they hated the unconventional S2. How dare a double shoot tighter composite groups at 100 meters than the typical current production boxlock will at fifty meters. How dare a hunter use such a rifle on a Nyala at 225 yards. Simply a superb rifle.

 

[BeeMaa]

Watching with interest.
Abstained from voting because I've neither owned or shot a DR.

However, given the choices, I'd go with the K-Gun or S2.
I really like the decocker on my R8 and would want the same on a DR.
Both rifles are beautiful in their own way to me.
It would depend on how each rifle felt in my hands and came up to the shoulder.