Loading up a .405 Winchester

[RolandtheHeadless]

I've found only two loading manuals by different bullet makers, which seem to be the only ones still making bullets for a .405 Win (.411-inch diameter).

I also own a Marlin 45-70. The two manuals (Hornady and Barnes) give several different, progressively hotter loads for the .45-70, depending on what type of rifle you're using. The old trapdoor Springfield gets less powder than the Marlin 1895, which in turn maxes out with less powder than the loads developed for a Ruger No 1. The No. 1 has a stronger action that can withstand greater pressure.

My new .405 Win is a Ruger No. 1. All of the .405 data by Barnes and Hornady were from testing a lever-action, specifically a Winchester 1895, which I don't believe is even as strong as the Marlin.

It seems to me that the stronger Ruger action should be able to withstand greater pressure than a Win 1895. Yet neither bullet-maker has published any enhanced loads for .405 fired in the Ruger No. 1.

Wouldn't it be possible to safely develop enhanced .405 loads to take full advantage of the Ruger's strong action? I am thinking of using the .45-70 variations as a rough guide for how much more powder to add, while of course keeping alert to the usual signs of excessive pressure.

 

[CAustin]

Roland you are doing something that I have no skill in. However, your logic makes sense to me. Be careful sir as I'm sure you will.

 

[ChrisG]

Hi Roland.

I wouldn't go above Winchester 1895 pressure specs. The old 95 was chambered in some hot cartridges including .30/06 (60,000psi)and the Russians ordered a model in 7.62X52R. It is almost as strong as the bolt guns of the day and way beyond the strength of a Marlin 1895 (about 45,000psi)

That being said... if your looking for a great single shot for short range North American game or African plains game, it's a great old classic and fits the bill nicely... if you ever want to take it to Africa for heavy boned, thick skinned DG, you can always have the chamber reamed to .450/400!

 

[ChrisG]

Just as an addendum to my last post, unlike the .45/70, the .405 was developed from the beginning as a smokeless cartridge. You might be able to push it slightly past it's original factory specs but I don't think adding 100 FPS is going to take it from a medium bore, short range rifle to elephant gun status.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

Ah, I didn't realize the 405 was developed originally as a smokeless cartridge. And looking again at my Barnes manual, I see their max loads are at or near 100 percent density. So there's not much room to load it up.

I wonder if a totally different, faster class of propellants would hot rod the .405? If so, such experiments are above my grade.

I guess my dreams of a hot-rodded .405 go up in smoke. Oh, well. I'll still have fun with it.

 

[ChrisG]

The .405 is generally loaded with faster rifle powders anyway... If you want a hot rodded .405, they make one. It's called the .450/400 Nitro Express! Your .405 is going to be a lot of fun! You could also load up plinking rounds using .41 magnum handgun bullets and trailboss powder. I used trailboss in my .416 with 375 grain cast lead and it was so much fun it should be criminal. All you do is measure where the base of the bullet sits in the case and fill the case up to just shy of that point. Thats your max load.

 

[wswolf]

It seems to me that the stronger Ruger action should be able to withstand greater pressure than a Win 1895. Yet neither bullet-maker has published any enhanced loads for .405 fired in the Ruger No. 1.

Wouldn't it be possible to safely develop enhanced .405 loads to take full advantage of the Ruger's strong action? I am thinking of using the .45-70 variations as a rough guide for how much more powder to add, while of course keeping alert to the usual signs of excessive pressure.

I wouldn't try that route. The "usual signs of excessive pressure" don't show up well in the #1 action.

Having had similar ambitions for my Ruger #1 in .405, I had a reamer made and lengthened the chamber throat by .28”. This allowed 300 TSX to be seated at 3.500” and 400 Woodleigh to be seated at 3.520” overall length and still leave .020” of clearance before the bullets touched the rifling. Using “The Rules” by John Barsness, I calculated the potential velocity increase over the loads in the Hodgdon Manual.

The 300 TSX was worked up to 2500 fps using Benchmark or 8208XBR.

The 400 gn Woodleigh (.411”) went to 2150 fps using 8208XBR, TAC or Reloder 15.

No indications of excessive pressure were found. Accuracy was excellent and loads of normal length shot as well as they did before the surgery.

Exceeding these velocities would not be advisable. The recoil of the 300 gn bullets was on the verge of objectionable while the 400 gn loads were not unpleasant. No doubt the Decelerator recoil pad helped.

Oddly enough, 400 gn Hornady bullets at .410" diameter would not stabilize and those that hit the target at all made seriously oblong holes.

True Shot .41 caliber 265 gn cast bullets loaded to 3.09” overall length over 12 gn of Unique made cloverleaf groups.

The reamer is now in the custody of gunsmith Doug Wells in Huson, Montana. If he is terribly busy he might just rent you the reamer. His number is (406)626-4152.

Cheers

 

[fsrmg1]

I was out playing with my chronograph this weekend testing my accuracy loads. I was using an original Winchester 95 (circa 1922) with a .413" groove dia. I swapped out the the original front sight (.363" height) with a .375" height Williams Fire Sight, which is a lot easier on the eyes. Being taller, it's calculated to drop the point of impact down about 2.6". But, being a slightly larger bead, caused it to sit a bit higher in the rear sight notch, which only translated to her shooting about an 1-1 1/2" lower when shooting in the real world. With the larger groove dia., this rifle did not like the 300 gr Hornady .411" projectiles and threw them all over the place. None key holed, but groups were 6-8" large.

I had worked up two loads for optimum accuracy which shot to precisely the top to the new front sight bead at 100 yds. Benched, both loads with shoot inside 1 1/2", which is as good as I can do these days with irons. Especially when using the original Winchester Express rear sight.

The rifle was originally off an African plantation in Tanganyika, so was likely regulated with Kynoch brand ammo, which would have been a 300 gr pill going a little under 2200 fps with a 24" barrel. The rifle regulated perfectly with the original front sight at about 2160-70 fps, so that's what the original load likely did out of the old girl.

The following loads were based upon the Woodleigh .412" 300 gr RN, and the Hawk .416 350 gr RN that was lubed and shoved twice through a Lee .413" bullet sizing die, then cleaned of course. Brass was new Hornady, primers were CCI Large Rifle. After bullets seated, cartridges were crimped with a Lee factory crimper.

300 gr Woodleigh, H4895 - 57.0 grs, OAL: 3.145", 2226 fps, 3300 fpe, 38.2K psi (seated to cannelure)
350 gr Hawk, VV N530 - 56.5 grs, OAL: 3.185", 2236 fps, 45.5k psi, 3885 fpe (seated .015" off lands)

This is a good combination, since both loads shoot to the exact same point of impact at 100 yds in my rifle. Next time I take her out for buffalo, I'll be using the 350 grainers, otherwise she'll be on a 300 gr diet.

Lessons learned, hang on tight to the forearm, if it slips out of your grip, it will throw the shot about 7" high!

 

[crs]

Roland,
You are in luck as at least two of the above posts show actual experience loading the The 1895 .405. Much of the rest is hearsay or repeats from statements in reloading manuals or stories by gun writers.

First, there are powders that work with the .405 and one of them, VV N133 generates 10,,000 to 12 ,000 psi LESS PEAK pressure than most powders. Maximum peak pressure, not energy under the pressure curve, is what damages rifles. Energy under the curve is what pushes the bullet through the barrel and out to smack down big game.

Next, when I first bought my first 1895, I searched the Internet and found much good useable information, in fact one of the above posts reads much like one of the better ones that I found.
Real experience beats hearsay!

The factory Hornady 300 grain ammo is rated at 2225 fps MV and is very effective on most all big game. I prefer the North Fork bullets for reloading if the game is above average size or toughness.

The Cape Buff in the picture was taken with a 400 grain Woodleigh Weldcore loaded to 2100 fps MV. Other 405 WCF hand loaders have loaded the same bullet to 2157 and on towards 2200 fps MV.

Time for supper. Upon return, I will elaborate on the 400 grain loads.

 

[crs]

Roland,
If you become interested in shooting the 400 grain Woodies, it is worth the trouble to extend the chamber to be able to crimp on the cannelure. This also gives you more space for powder and with N133 another 100 feet per second.
Let me know if you decide to do that and I can provide some load info that will easily reach 450/400 velocities- much less trouble and cost than buying another rifle..

PS My Simson Suhl .405 WCF double regulates both 300 and 400 grain bullets - a nice option if ele are on the menu. Read Cals book- it tells you how that works.

 

[fsrmg1]

Another bit for interest, my experience using 400 gr Woodleighs in my original Win M95. Again, due to my rifle having a. 413" groove diameter, I started with the .416" 400 gr round nose designed for the. 416 Remington. I lubed and shoved them through a .413" sizing dia a couple of times. Using Hornady brass, CCI LR primers and H4895 powder, I had the following results.

50.0 gr H4895, 1928 fps, 3302 fpe, bullet seated to 3.235" OAL and Lee factory crimped

To regulate this load, I needed to switch out the front sight from the original. 363" height one to a .312". I probably could have went even shorter as well, as it still shot a bit low.

I shot two buffalo with this load and came to the conclusion that the bullet being designed for .416 Remington velocity was just too hard for .405 velocities. Even at close range, expansion was slight and penetration was extreme. The second one I shot took one in the chest, then reversed and started to run away when I gave it a Texas heart shot. It went full length of the body (6"+) and still had enough energy to break the jaw. The bullet was found just under the skin of the beast's mouth.

 

[crs]

fsrmg1,

Good show!
It seems to me that you do not need any more muzzle velocity or penetration (6 feet is good)..

WRT sights, my 400 grain loads are "on" when the front bead covers the the desired point of impact. The 300 grain POI is good with a 6 o'clock hold.
Fun rifles!

 

[Nevada Mike]

The Woodleigh manual shows a number of .405 loads for their 300 and 400 gr. bullets. Some loads for the 300 gr. Weldcore RN SN approach 2400 fps. with Benchmark (2390) and H4895 (2350). Barrel length and rifle models not specified.

 

[fsrmg1]

Another bit for interest, my experience using 400 gr Woodleighs in my original Win M95. Again, due to my rifle having a. 413" groove diameter, I started with the .416" 400 gr round nose designed for the. 416 Remington. I lubed and shoved them through a .413" sizing dia a couple of times. Using Hornady brass, CCI LR primers and H4895 powder, I had the following results.

50.0 gr H4895, 1928 fps, 3302 fpe, bullet seated to 3.235" OAL and Lee factory crimped

To regulate this load, I needed to switch out the front sight from the original. 363" height one to a .312". I probably could have went even shorter as well, as it still shot a bit low.

I shot two buffalo with this load and came to the conclusion that the bullet being designed for .416 Remington velocity was just too hard for .405 velocities. Even at close range, expansion was slight and penetration was extreme. The second one I shot took one in the chest, then reversed and started to run away when I gave it a Texas heart shot. It went full length of the body (6"+) and still had enough energy to break the jaw. The bullet was found just under the skin of the beast's mouth.

That is 6 feet, not 6 inches...

 

[crs]

Nevada Mike,
I do not have the Woodleigh load manual, but those velocities are quite similar to 300 grain velocities documented by several shooters of the .405 WCF.
A person with whom I correspond has reported measured 1895 WCF muzzle velocities of 400 grain Woodies of 2157 fps and working up toward 2200 fps where he plans to stop. He is using N133 powder and Federal 215M primers.
As fsrmg1 has noted, even a 2000 fps MV 400 grain Woodie is adequate for Cape Buffalo.

 

[sestoppelman]

Some years ago I was in discussion with the editor of Gun World where I was a contributor at the time and we got around to the .405 Win.
I had at that time a Ruger No.1 so chambered and he asked about loading it up with 400 gr bullets to .450/400 speeds. I was a little squeamish about it at first but took the project on.
I was indeed able to duplicate those velocities in the Ruger with no problems other than the substantial recoil generated and wrote it up for GW and it was published.
The Ruger is a stronger rifle than the 1895 no question so a better platform if one wants to hoss up the old round, however as noted by crs, he has done the same thing with his '95 after some minor mods to the rifle.
Article printed in the Nov. 2005 issue of GW. Vol 46, No.11
That Ruger though a beautiful and fine shooting rifle is long gone, I have been thru 3 1895's and should have another on the way soon.
I will be content however to shoot only standard type loadings in the guns.

 

[crs]

"if you ever want to take it to Africa for heavy boned, thick skinned DG, you can always have the chamber reamed to .450/400!"
No offense Chris, but you really would benefit with the shooting of and handloading for an 1895 .405 WCF.
Case in point, Hornady 450/400 ammo is sold in boxes that claim a MV of 2050 fps. !!! Above hunters have told us that that is fast enough for a 400 grain Woodie to kill Cape buff. I have done it and had 40 inches of penetration . After punching a hole in the heart the bullet exited between the front legs!!!
Been there, done that! I respect the 450/400, but choose my .405 WCF over it in the lever gun or my .405 DR.
It is easy for a hand loader to safely push a 400 grain Woodie out of a .405 WCF at 2150+ fps.
Hell, lots of hunters have taken all the big five with the 300 grain bullets.

I recommend reading the writings of Osa Johnson, the first female PH in Kenya. She did it all with her .405 and factory 300 grain bullets at 2200 fps.
I am not knocking the 450/400, but there are other rifles that match or exceed those ballistics.

One last comment on "big boned" buff -- I took a water buff at 45 yards with my 1895 shooting a 300 grain North Fork Cup Point Solid at MV of 2250 fps and the NF destroyed the shoulders and frontal chest organs and the buff was dead when it hit the ground. I have three witnesses to that "heavy boned" kill. It was a tough old brute, but made great hamburger .

Add a couple of Nilgai bulls to the one shot-one kill list.

 

[sestoppelman]

"if you ever want to take it to Africa for heavy boned, thick skinned DG, you can always have the chamber reamed to .450/400!"
No offense Chris, but you really would benefit with the shooting of and handloading for an 1895 .405 WCF.
Case in point, Hornady 450/400 ammo is sold in boxes that claim a MV of 2050 fps. !!! Above hunters have told us that that is fast enough for a 400 grain Woodie to kill Cape buff. I have done it and had 40 inches of penetration . After punching a hole in the heart the bullet exited between the front legs!!!
Been there, done that! I respect the 450/400, but choose my .405 WCF over it in the lever gun or my .405 DR.
It is easy for a hand loader to safely push a 400 grain Woodie out of a .405 WCF at 2150+ fps.
Hell, lots of hunters have taken all the big five with the 300 grain bullets.

I recommend reading the writings of Osa Johnson, the first female PH in Kenya. She did it all with her .405 and factory 300 grain bullets at 2200 fps.
I am not knocking the 450/400, but there are other rifles that match or exceed those ballistics.

One last comment on "big boned" buff -- I took a water buff at 45 yards with my 1895 shooting a 300 grain North Fork Cup Point Solid at MV of 2250 fps and the NF destroyed the shoulders and frontal chest organs and the buff was dead when it hit the ground. I have three witnesses to that "heavy boned" kill. It was a tough old brute, but made great hamburger .

Add a couple of Nilgai bulls to the one shot-one kill list.

Can you link to something about Osa Johnson being an actual PH in Kenya? Thats not something I have ever heard of.
I know of their filming and know she shot lots of game but never heard of the PH angle.

 

[crs]

I read it in one of her books that I have. I will check and let you know. I have also seen it elsewhere but do not remember where.

 

[crs]

SES,
That did it, after scanning one of Osas books, I began reading it .
Oh well, the sun is now up and melting the ice from everything and it will be a good day to try to catch up on Internet (power out 3 days) and reading and chores ( LOTS of down limbs and some trees). Per a friend, it was down to 14 degrees in Rockport on the Texas coast. But he did not have the ice and snow that we had here in NE Texas.