My new Model 70 pre 64- 375 H&H "working" rifle- Have sight question

[Traveler1]

So after a year or more scouring endless online websites I finally found a Model 70 pre 64 375 H&H "working" rifle. I have always wanted a pre 64 in 375, but never a show piece or on the flipside one that looks like it was left in the duck blind for season. I could have probably picked up one years ago, but I am pistol guy at heart, so it was put down lower in queue. So to me a "working" rifle is rifle that just by looking at it you can see it has history in the field. It has dings on the outside, but the action is smooth with no rust, but a little pitting on the exterior is OK. The working rifle action is taken care of as this could save your ass one day. Kinda like a 70 or to mid 80's Chevy truck that still purrs like a kitten but might have a scratch or two and whisky dent here and there. Now, you cannot tell the cycling by looking at it, so that is gamble when buying through an auction house. I rolled the dice.

Well she arrived today, I could not be more pleased. Now I own, several Model 70(s), one being a 1984 in 375 H&H, that has taken a DG on several Continents by my father and myself without issue. I know its not a control feed, but this rifle will be buried with me. That being said, this Model 70, shoulders like you wouldn't believe. It pulls straight up to my line of sight and the lop is perfect with a crisp trigger. I am small guy, 5'7" 135lbs, so how an the hell does this fit me so well, when everything is original? It has to be low comb stock. The balance is damn near perfect! The only way to described it, is that swings like a my Browning Citori, which i have bee hunting for nearly 30 years.

Back to the working rifle. As you can see from the pictures below (maybe to many), the stock has scratches, scraps and only one gouge but great color. The blueing is worn fairly even except the bolt and top of the safety. Also the front barrel blueing is mostly gone. Now part of this from shooting but the other part is from riding shotgun with the barrel facing down rubbing on the floorboard. One my Model 70's is the same why and she was not been overly shot. Also on the top of barrel you can feel slight scratches and maybe a pit here and there. This from carrying the rifle over your shoulder and holding on to the barrel. The scratches are most likely from a ring. The scratches on the top means she was hunted, maybe she has taken some African DG as well. The action is smooth as silk and the barrel's interior looks better than very good. Overall she has great patina.

The only issue I see is with the sights. It needs a new front sight and the rear sight need to be tightened. I presume pre64win is the best place to get new sights.

Long winded sorry...

SO HERE IS MY ISSUE. I want a quick release scope mount on it. But there is no hole in the receiver bridge and from what I have read, if I tap it it kills the value of the rifle. Now I will never sell this rifle, maybe trade it for 404J Jeffery, but whom I kidding this won't happen. So I am not selling it. Also I will never refinish the stock or get it re-blue, as I want to keep near as original as possible. What so company make a Stith or side mount quick release scope mount? If no one makes one, should I just have the receiver tapped?

Thanks for the reading the top story to get my main question above.

Kelley

 

[ARHinAK]

A couple thoughts. 1st. What is this rifles mission?
You need to answer that first since mission drives the equipment train. If it’s buffalo hunting in Africa at 25-75 yards and your eyes are good enough, maybe the rifle is good enough as is. It seems to have worked for everyone else whose owned it. (Maybe a high viz front sight would be nice).
2nd. It is your rifle and if your eyes aren’t that good or it’s mission is something else, then drill and tap for some Talley QD rings and use it as you see fit.
3rd. I personally think a side mount like a Griffin & Howe is a terrible thing to do to a rifle. It’s one thing for a guy to have done it back in the 40s or 50s when scopes hadn’t quite sorted themselves out yet but I’d not do it today.
My 2 cents. Worth what ya paid for it.

 

[ARHinAK]

Very nice rifle by the way!

 

[Fixfire]

Nice Gun. Pre 64’s in .375 tend to crack when shot - particularly from the bench. Personally I would clean, oil, fix sights (looks like it only needs the front hood cover??) and leave be as a reminder of a bygone era. Would be a fun plinker from the shoulder. Please don’t refinish, re blue, drill, etc. - but it is YOUR gun. To me, it’s worth more as is, than after being d!cked with. Besides, you said you already have a more modern M70 in .375.

 

[318AE]

Super cool gun. It’s your gun….

If I wanted a scoped 375, I wouldn’t get there by getting this rifle and drilling and tapping it etc. I would appreciate it for what it is. It is a 73 year old example of a ~88 year old model, based on a ~125 year old design. What else has really maintained their utility so well? Certainly not cars or anything.

I have a similar one in the carbine version, SN 38xxx or so. It has a period installed peep sight, that mounts via the tapped holes on the side on the receiver. I believe that was the in vogue upgrade of the time. Sometimes a peep sight can really help, when eyes struggle with an express type sight. That particular express sight is specific to the 375.

 

[Denvir Tire]

I have genuine envy, it's everything I like about rifles....
Find an older Redfield or Lyman receiver sight, peep, diopter made for for the M70 and try that before drilling, cutting, machining etc
For tense shooting at close range, unscrew the "peep" part and look through the remaining hole.... field expedient ghost ring

 

[Luvthunt]

I am with Denver I use a Lyman 57 on my pre64 375 and it has done all I need. The receiver is already tapped.

 

[93marlin]

[

I have genuine envy, it's everything I like about rifles....
Find an older Redfield or Lyman receiver sight, peep, diopter made for for the M70 and try that before drilling, cutting, machining etc
For tense shooting at close range, unscrew the "peep" part and look through the remaining hole.... field expedient ghost ring

+1 Rifle is nearly perfect as it is. Just my opinion, I could be wrong

 

[Traveler1]

A couple thoughts. 1st. What is this rifles mission?
You need to answer that first since mission drives the equipment train. If it’s buffalo hunting in Africa at 25-75 yards and your eyes are good enough, maybe the rifle is good enough as is. It seems to have worked for everyone else whose owned it. (Maybe a high viz front sight would be nice).
2nd. It is your rifle and if your eyes aren’t that good or it’s mission is something else, then drill and tap for some Talley QD rings and use it as you see fit.
3rd. I personally think a side mount like a Griffin & Howe is a terrible thing to do to a rifle. It’s one thing for a guy to have done it back in the 40s or 50s when scopes hadn’t quite sorted themselves out yet but I’d not do it today.
My 2 cents. Worth what ya paid for it.

1. Mission is take on a Buffalo hunt next summer. Needs a new visible from sight for sure
2. Eyes, well still pretty good for 50. Close vision (5 inches or closer) is shot and only wear my glassed at night to drive. So I can hunt no problem with open sights.
3. I agree, I don't like the way side mounts looks, but thinking maybe an option incase I need to thread the needle at 100 yard or more.

 

[Traveler1]

I have a similar one in the carbine version, SN 38xxx or so. It has a period installed peep sight, that mounts via the tapped holes on the side on the receiver. I believe that was the in vogue upgrade of the time. Sometimes a peep sight can really help, when eyes struggle with an express type sight. That particular express sight is specific to the 375.

@318AE and @Denvir Tire. I have not used a peep sight since my NRA days as a kid. Express are fine now, eye sight is good enough. These sights are just a little wore out, I need them replace them sure, as the front is bent and the rear is loose.
But on the other hand, peep does make sense, for more precise shooting. Don't you have to notch the stock and tap the receiveer for a peep sight? Or can you use the existing holes on the left side of the receiver.

 

[375er]

If you never intend to sell it, make it way you want it and enjoy! If you want to tap it and install a scope in QD mounts go for it!! Its already been used and you won't retire on the money from selling it. Can't wait to hear the stories you make with it.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi Traveler,

VERY NICE working M70!!!
I found mine, around 200.000 digits newer, made in1954. In the same used condition than yours! Mine came already with the standard for the model base screw holes. I like yours more because the non montecarlo stock!!
Anyway, without any doubt I would drill and tape the rear bridge holes, positioned and spaced as the original ones like mine. Period. So, you could use the correct front and rear bases for the original M70 pre 64 magnum action.
Another thing I would do is to check the contact of the fron bridge metal recoil shoulder on the stock. Is the only fault I have seen in these rifles. Ideally I would re bed the action on the stock before any split occurs. And reinforce with some kind of cross bolt, just in case.Probably there is one split right now....
Good luck and enjoy your working rifle!

CF

 

[Vintageguy]

Here’s a solution for you. It’s tapped at the front of receiver so use a Weaver base with a red dot. Your rifle has the very early stripper clip slot as does this one. I can even still use a stripper clip if I want, this one is 30-06. In other words there’s plenty of loading clearance and with a 2moa dot it’s good longer distances. I can remove or add the base and red dot in a literal minute and they return to zero with standard mounting.

 

[Joker12]

That's A nice rifle and is perfect to improve into a great user. First of all its not a collector because to a collector condition is everything and it has seen some use so if it were mine I would have the rear receiver bridge drilled and tapped so that you can properly mount a scope. Then as has been pointed out the 375s are notorious for cracks in the stock in the tang area and the magazine box area so have it double crossbolted and glass bedded. If you do those things it will be a bullet proof true working rifle that you can bet your life on. Nice find!

 

[Traveler1]

If you never intend to sell it, make it way you want it and enjoy! If you want to tap it and install a scope in QD mounts go for it!! Its already been used and you won't retire on the money from selling it. Can't wait to hear the stories you make with it.

I agree 100%. Just got to get over the fact, I will be drilling into 73 yr old virgin metal. Well maybe not virgin but OEM.

 

[Velo Dog]

Hello Traveller1,

Excellent rifle you have there.
In my grouchy old man opinion, the model 1898 Mauser ….. when considering ALL species, at all “reasonable” hunting distances IMO, (from sword fighting distance, out to around 4 or 500 paces), is by far the world’s finest hunting rifle.
There are many copies, (mostly ones that cheapen the manufacturing process).

With that, among all the endless copies of Paul Mauser’s Model ‘98, around the world, since the end of WW-II … the Winchester Model 70 (not the 1964, through perhaps the 1980’s, cheezy, “push feed” ones), the Controlled Round Feed Model 70, is one of the World’s most excellent hunting rifles.

Agreeing with others here, I suggest that you should consider having a Professional Gunsmith bed the action and cross pin the stock, to avoid recoil cracks.
Regarding iron sights, I rather like the original rear sights on your rifle (once I did own one pretty much identical to yours).
Well, except that, I had a larger, white front sight bead installed, because my eyes (like yours), are aging.
And so, I suggest that you have installed a large (LARGE), white front bead sight.
Warthog ivory is classic and does not turn yellow with age.
However, porcelain likewise never yellows and is much more “impact resistant” than real ivory.
New England Custom Gun (often printed as: “NECG” these days), sells porcelain beads, in all sizes, including large ones for old guys like us.
Not cheap but worth every penny for sure.

Then, 1.
Consider having it professionally claw mounted for a simple but sturdy 4x scope from about the same window in history as the rifle itself.
The Zeiss 4x with front bell rubber armored comes to mind.
Now and then they do pop up for sale on various internet sites (gunsinternational.com is the best one, IMO).

2.
Since claw mounts now cost well beyond $1,000.US these days (but still worth it), perhaps you prefer to save some money ? ….. Then, do consider having the OLDER model Talley blocks (aka: “bases”) installed (requires drill & tap) and again, the older model Talley lever rings to match installed.
As usual, I recommend a sturdy, 4x scope, from about the same vintage as your excellent rifle.

3.
Forgive an old rifle grump for answering a question that you did not ask.
But, I encourage you to use 300 grain Swift brand, A-Frame bullets, for all species (Africa or anywhere) that you may hunt, especially all buffaloes, including every sub-species.
Well, except elephant.
Those require all solids.

The Swift A-Frame is arguably the best of the best, among ALL of the world’s expanding big game bullets, world wide that, has ever been dreamed up.
Indeed it is everything the Nosler Partition always wanted to be but never achieved.
Admittedly, there are some other good ones out there now.
However, again in my opinion, nothing is as sure as the Swift A-Frame.
Zowie, whata bullet !
No, I do not get any sort of benefit (however, IMO, I do deserve a “kick back” from Swift for all the good I’m constantly crowing about their bullet. LoL).

In the air now.
Upon landing, my young trophy wife (she’s only 62) and I will be doing a wee bit of fly fishing.
So, gotta run.
Again I say, great rifle.
And, I hope you carry it on many grand adventures.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[375er]

I agree 100%. Just got to get over the fact, I will be drilling into 73 yr old virgin metal. Well maybe not virgin but OEM.

That rifle is far from virgin or oem. Dress her up in fabulous undergarments and take her to the presidential ball. Then take her to Africa and have your way with her!

 

[F. Vaccaro]

I am with Denver I use a Lyman 57 on my pre64 375 and it has done all I need. The receiver is already tapped.

I agree, this rifle is already drilled & tapped for receiver sights. I’d get a nice Lyman or Redfield receiver sight & be done. They are fast & accurate. Remove the aperture & bingo you have a ghost ring sight!

 

[Traveler1]

Anyway, without any doubt I would drill and tape the rear bridge holes, positioned and spaced as the original ones like mine. Period. So, you could use the correct front and rear bases for the original M70 pre 64 magnum action.
Another thing I would do is to check the contact of the fron bridge metal recoil shoulder on the stock. Is the only fault I have seen in these rifles. Ideally I would re bed the action on the stock before any split occurs. And reinforce with some kind of cross bolt, just in case.Probably there is one split right now....
Good luck and enjoy your working rifle!

CF

That's A nice rifle and is perfect to improve into a great user. First of all its not a collector because to a collector condition is everything and it has seen some use so if it were mine I would have the rear receiver bridge drilled and tapped so that you can properly mount a scope. Then as has been pointed out the 375s are notorious for cracks in the stock in the tang area and the magazine box area so have it double crossbolted and glass bedded. If you do those things it will be a bullet proof true working rifle that you can bet your life on. Nice find!

First plan is to go shoot it this weekend, if I was in Texas I would have already shot it, but being here in OK now with no farm land, I need to join a gun club.
Second, as both of you recommend, have it serviced. I plan in sending to pre64win for a good cleaning and inspection of its parts. And having them prefer any necessary fixes and improvements to make bullet proof again. I read on their website, they will tap virgin receivers for a scope, maybe they were kidding. If they won't I need to find a good local OK or north Texas gunsmith.
Third. Tally quick release, scope and make her the go to rifle.
Maybe before the Third, need to shoot a few peep sights to get use to them again, as I really like the look of them. I do have a rifle waiting on entry to the US that has one.

 

[Vintageguy]

There’s a lot of comments as far as collectibility. It appears honest and original and frankly that condition has its fans, I’m one, because I can enjoy it as is or go all the way with it in a custom build but I wouldn’t go part way. That configuration of receiver doesn’t grow on trees and as far as cracks, it’s had 73 years to do that. I personally wouldn’t alter it. Something reversible or the Lyman peep for a classic. It’s unique as is but depending on the quality of redo it’ll possibly be just another redone Winchester and most of those aren’t as unique as that.
Everyone has their own preferences but that’s why original untouched, unaltered rifles are getting harder to find each day.