My Winchester mod 70 375 has taken me full circle

[saswart]

My Winchester Model 70 in 375 H&H... This rifle has given me so much headaches and indecision over the years...

Let me start with how I got the rifle. Growing up in SA, with a father and grandfather having both been a PH's for years and the other grandfather also an avid hunter, hunting was in my genes. Firearms and hunting discussions were plentiful.

Then in 2009 things changed a bit. My father was going hunt elephant in Zim. At the time my father had a pre 64 model 70 375, given to him by own father. My grandfather hearing of the hunt, decided to bless his grandkids each with Model 70 375, although not pre 64's.

Thus I inherited a mod 70 375! This rifle was used by my grandfather's clients on hunts when in SA so it was used and old, but still in good shape overall and if I did my part, it would shoot sub moa. I started using this rifle and soon it became my go-to rifle. We do a lot of BASA (Big Bore Association) shooting, with 6 competitions a year, roughly 120 shots, exercise and hunting and I guess I averaged 200 - 300 shots a year with it the 375 since then. I used the 375 for everything and it never let me down. I truly am and will be a big 375 fan and advocate.

But there was an issue for me, let's call it issue 1, I felt I was using it to much. The BASA shoots puts a lot of strain on the gun and you really put the gun through its paces, causing lots of wear and tear on the rifle. This type of shooting, lets call it IPDA/IPSC type of shooting, where ones tries to replicate a Big 5 hunting scenario, you run and move and it is really adrenaline pumping stuff and one enjoys this type of shooting. I felt I was starting to abuse the 375 and feeling sentimental about it and wanting to save it, I went and bought a Bruno 458 Express 3" with the ZKK 602 action... I bought a dedicated Big Bore rifle, correct in the sense of caliber, its a CRF, Bruno/CZ is workhorse rifle, it wasn't to expensive, I can use the action one day to build a 450 Rigby, it just ticked all the boxes for me to address my first concern. I might add this as a separate topic as well one day what is a 458 Express. In short an Express is to a Lott, what a Lott is to a 458 Win Mag... 3 Inch 375 case, whereas the Lott is a 2.8 inch case. You can push it more at lower pressures. Currently I am shooting 500gr at 2200fps.

Another issue (issue 2) was on hunts with friends. Although having lots of rifles in the family, I actually did not have a proper hunting rifle to my name apart from the 375 and an old 303. The 303 had family sentiment, but that was about it.

Now my 3rd issue arose. My dad moved to a farm and now we had our own shooting range where we could shoot to our hearts content. As mentioned we did the BASA shoots and type of shooting and we are quite good at it, but now having full time access to your own range opened up a whole new dimension to our shooting. We now could now spend more time on the range. My brother was more into firearms at that stage the me, so he started to really play with load development and naturally distance etc. This is where my trusty 375 started to show cracks in its armor. I was quickly left "behind" with my 375. I did go along, but truth be told, although I enjoy my 375 and shoot it comfortable from a bench, something smaller is more pleasant when trying to shoot groups at 100m, gongs at 200m etc.

During this period, I replaced the original sold Nico Sterling 4x40, which worked beautifully actually., with a Bushnell 3-9 that was laying around. This worked a bit to extend the legs on the 375, but a 375 does not shoot that comfortably as say a 308 or a 223. You can do a lot more with the latter.

With the 458 Express resolving my first issue, I decided to address issue 2/3. It was time to invest more in shooting in general. This was my hobby, but my safe did not attest to it. I felt I neglected the history of shooting, the technical side of it and just general shooting at paper/gongs etc. and I still felt I was using my inherited 375 still to much.

After a very long look at all the types of shooting disciplines and those that I did part time. I enjoy pistol shooting and will one day join our local IDPA / IPSC club. I enjoy clay pigeon shooting and have a machine, but this is still recreational. I had a long look at long range shooting and PRS. I was interested at first and still like reading up on it, watching videos, but sitting down and being honest to myself, I made the decision that yes it would be nice to do LR and PRS, but it really is not my thing. Would I spend R100k ($15000) on a PRS type of rifle etc. or would I rather hunt or buy another big bore? The latter was the easy answer.

I ended up buying a a few smaller caliber hunting rifles. This year I hunted with them all and at first I was happy, until I bumped a very big Kudu bull. At the time I had a 6.5x57 with me and at that moment I realized I missed my 375. I missed the mystique of the caliber, the idea of carrying a big bore caliber. So to make up to the 375, I got it a new scope that is deserving for a Mod 70, being a Leupold VX3i. All I need to do is get proper QD mounts, maybe. I guess I have to give others some time they deserve and get over my 375, but I can't.

The last headache I have is the gun itself. I know the pre 64 or newer versions are CRF actions. With almost 12 years of BASA shooting, hunting and practice, in excess of 1500 shots with this 375, I have never had an issue with the push feed. I used the 375 on the elephant hunt and maybe due to ignorance and not knowing the CRF v PF, it was a non issue at the time. In fact, I trust and know my post 64 mod 70 PF so much I would use it again on big five hunts. But I am now developing a similar love for my 458, so it may be close.

I am however not blasé and do acknowledge a CRF is superior and probably saver and for that reason plus knowing the history of the Winchester Mod 70 with the pre 64 and actually having one in the family to compare mine to, the thought has been there to sell my Mod 70 and buy a pre 64. However I doubt I would do it as I inherited it and have such a love for it.

In the end, my Mod 70 has caused me to buy other rifles, maybe it will cause me buy another Mod 70 pre 64, yet I will still use my trusty Mod 70 with all rest becoming save queens.... I just love my plain old model 70 Winchester in 375 H&H that can almost do anything.

 

[shotgungibbs]

Sounds like your rifle is great! You trust it, shoot it well & love it! Keep using it, and abusing it. It was built to be used & shot.

 

[Pole Pole]

The model 70 post-64 Safari Classic is a control feed. Mine is very accurate which cost $1000 in slightly used condition. Might consider as another option.

 

[tombkeeper]

sounds like you should get a crf model 70 in .375 & use that for all the BASA shoots, & keep the inherited .375 for special plains game hunts (but bring the crf for the dangerous game hunts)…. you already have familiarity with that cartridge & have realized its ability to reliably drop any game as long as shot placement is correct.

 

[Luvthunt]

Good luck with your quest.

 

[cajunchefray]

My Winchester Model 70 in 375 H&H... This rifle has given me so much headaches and indecision over the years...

Let me start with how I got the rifle. Growing up in SA, with a father and grandfather having both been a PH's for years and the other grandfather also an avid hunter, hunting was in my genes. Firearms and hunting discussions were plentiful.

Then in 2009 things changed a bit. My father was going hunt elephant in Zim. At the time my father had a pre 64 model 70 375, given to him by own father. My grandfather hearing of the hunt, decided to bless his grandkids each with Model 70 375, although not pre 64's.

Thus I inherited a mod 70 375! This rifle was used by my grandfather's clients on hunts when in SA so it was used and old, but still in good shape overall and if I did my part, it would shoot sub moa. I started using this rifle and soon it became my go-to rifle. We do a lot of BASA (Big Bore Association) shooting, with 6 competitions a year, roughly 120 shots, exercise and hunting and I guess I averaged 200 - 300 shots a year with it the 375 since then. I used the 375 for everything and it never let me down. I truly am and will be a big 375 fan and advocate.

But there was an issue for me, let's call it issue 1, I felt I was using it to much. The BASA shoots puts a lot of strain on the gun and you really put the gun through its paces, causing lots of wear and tear on the rifle. This type of shooting, lets call it IPDA/IPSC type of shooting, where ones tries to replicate a Big 5 hunting scenario, you run and move and it is really adrenaline pumping stuff and one enjoys this type of shooting. I felt I was starting to abuse the 375 and feeling sentimental about it and wanting to save it, I went and bought a Bruno 458 Express 3" with the ZKK 602 action... I bought a dedicated Big Bore rifle, correct in the sense of caliber, its a CRF, Bruno/CZ is workhorse rifle, it wasn't to expensive, I can use the action one day to build a 450 Rigby, it just ticked all the boxes for me to address my first concern. I might add this as a separate topic as well one day what is a 458 Express. In short an Express is to a Lott, what a Lott is to a 458 Win Mag... 3 Inch 375 case, whereas the Lott is a 2.8 inch case. You can push it more at lower pressures. Currently I am shooting 500gr at 2200fps.

Another issue (issue 2) was on hunts with friends. Although having lots of rifles in the family, I actually did not have a proper hunting rifle to my name apart from the 375 and an old 303. The 303 had family sentiment, but that was about it.

Now my 3rd issue arose. My dad moved to a farm and now we had our own shooting range where we could shoot to our hearts content. As mentioned we did the BASA shoots and type of shooting and we are quite good at it, but now having full time access to your own range opened up a whole new dimension to our shooting. We now could now spend more time on the range. My brother was more into firearms at that stage the me, so he started to really play with load development and naturally distance etc. This is where my trusty 375 started to show cracks in its armor. I was quickly left "behind" with my 375. I did go along, but truth be told, although I enjoy my 375 and shoot it comfortable from a bench, something smaller is more pleasant when trying to shoot groups at 100m, gongs at 200m etc.

During this period, I replaced the original sold Nico Sterling 4x40, which worked beautifully actually., with a Bushnell 3-9 that was laying around. This worked a bit to extend the legs on the 375, but a 375 does not shoot that comfortably as say a 308 or a 223. You can do a lot more with the latter.

With the 458 Express resolving my first issue, I decided to address issue 2/3. It was time to invest more in shooting in general. This was my hobby, but my safe did not attest to it. I felt I neglected the history of shooting, the technical side of it and just general shooting at paper/gongs etc. and I still felt I was using my inherited 375 still to much.

After a very long look at all the types of shooting disciplines and those that I did part time. I enjoy pistol shooting and will one day join our local IDPA / IPSC club. I enjoy clay pigeon shooting and have a machine, but this is still recreational. I had a long look at long range shooting and PRS. I was interested at first and still like reading up on it, watching videos, but sitting down and being honest to myself, I made the decision that yes it would be nice to do LR and PRS, but it really is not my thing. Would I spend R100k ($15000) on a PRS type of rifle etc. or would I rather hunt or buy another big bore? The latter was the easy answer.

I ended up buying a a few smaller caliber hunting rifles. This year I hunted with them all and at first I was happy, until I bumped a very big Kudu bull. At the time I had a 6.5x57 with me and at that moment I realized I missed my 375. I missed the mystique of the caliber, the idea of carrying a big bore caliber. So to make up to the 375, I got it a new scope that is deserving for a Mod 70, being a Leupold VX3i. All I need to do is get proper QD mounts, maybe. I guess I have to give others some time they deserve and get over my 375, but I can't.

The last headache I have is the gun itself. I know the pre 64 or newer versions are CRF actions. With almost 12 years of BASA shooting, hunting and practice, in excess of 1500 shots with this 375, I have never had an issue with the push feed. I used the 375 on the elephant hunt and maybe due to ignorance and not knowing the CRF v PF, it was a non issue at the time. In fact, I trust and know my post 64 mod 70 PF so much I would use it again on big five hunts. But I am now developing a similar love for my 458, so it may be close.

I am however not blasé and do acknowledge a CRF is superior and probably saver and for that reason plus knowing the history of the Winchester Mod 70 with the pre 64 and actually having one in the family to compare mine to, the thought has been there to sell my Mod 70 and buy a pre 64. However I doubt I would do it as I inherited it and have such a love for it.

In the end, my Mod 70 has caused me to buy other rifles, maybe it will cause me buy another Mod 70 pre 64, yet I will still use my trusty Mod 70 with all rest becoming save queens.... I just love my plain old model 70 Winchester in 375 H&H that can almost do anything.

Sounds like you have a great rifle in your Model 70 PF. I find that the Winchester PF, work very well and smoother than some CRF M70s. Keep the bolt, extractor, and ejector clean and you will be good. I can cycle mine from the shoulder, never dropping the rifle to waist to cycle the bolt,
In short, my follow up shots are fast.

HOWEVER, if you can get your hands on a Model 70 .375 H&H ALASKAN, produced by BACO (Browning Arms Company) either Made in USA or Made in USA, assembled in Portugal, you will have a winner.

Winchester (FN Browning) moved final assembly to Portugal, in their plant that produces many Browning long guns, and has made the stocks for many years.

I've owned a M70 Alaskan .375 H&H, barreled action barrel made in USA, (in FN's ISO 9001 Quality Assurance plant, in South Carolina) and assembled in Portugal.

An absolutely fine weapon, that I could work the bolt from the shoulder, and the ammo fed flawlessly. IT's incredible the tolerances that Winchester/ FN can keep.

Good Luck with your search for a rifle; if you have great faith in your PF Model 70, .375 H&H, keep it, buy an extra extractor part, and shoot the hell out of it for practice.

 

[F. Vaccaro]

Sounds like you have a nice rifle. It should stay in your family.
I’m another who likes the .375.

 

[maxtheflyinghorse]

What ammo do you all use in your mod 70
This is my mod 70 classic super express in .375 H&H magnum

 

[cajunchefray]

I have shot Federal 300 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC), that I lucked into when a friends Gunshop closed.

My reloads were Sierra 300 grain Spitzer Boat Tail over a charge of 76 grains of Winchester 760 (below max published loads; but start at least 5% less and work up slowly for your rifle).

That load is very accurate in the three, .375H&Hs I have owned.

 

[Khalanyoni Game Ranch]

@max: beautiful setup! well done! i just bought mine so cannot speak to ammo yet.

@saswart: great story abouttrue legacy and tradition!

i was wondering if you had any pointers on scope setup. i want to shoot my m70 primarily using iron sights. however, some longer shots on at one stage of my next trip to africa might require a scope. the dilemma: i dont want to put a piccatinny rail on and “ruin” the classic look. this, of course, is a matter of taste so nobody should feel offended.thanks very much!

 

[Inline6]

I know this is an older post.

Money can be made, do not sell that rifle. Their will be a time you want to pass that on to your son or your grandson. It will be a bigger regret then parting with cash. .02

 

[Forrest Halley]

I know this is an older post.

Money can be made, do not sell that rifle. Their will be a time you want to pass that on to your son or your grandson. It will be a bigger regret then parting with cash. .02

Never sell the rifle. Worth a hell of a lot more than 2¢.

 

[Inline6]

Never sell the rifle. Worth a hell of a lot more than 2¢.

Maybe I should have put My .02, meaning my thoughts. I forget at times different people in different parts of the world might not understand the sayings/ figure of speeches we use over here.

 

[Nevada Mike]

...i was wondering if you had any pointers on scope setup. i want to shoot my m70 primarily using iron sights. however, some longer shots on at one stage of my next trip to africa might require a scope. the dilemma: i dont want to put a piccatinny rail on and “ruin” the classic look. this, of course, is a matter of taste so nobody should feel offended.thanks very much!

The piccatinny rail is, I think, a poor choice for a classic bolt rifle that may be used for DG as it obstructs the loading port to some degree.

On my 375 Model 70 I have Talley QD mounts with a Leupold 2-7X scope that was made for shotguns using slugs - 1/2 minute clicks and over 4" of eye relief. Flexible, lightweight, and easy to mount. I wouldn't go to a higher powered scope.

 

[mark-hunter]

@saswart
Great story, thanks for sharing.

I find some similarities from your story, to my perspective of shooting, which overlaps sport shooting and hunting, enjoying big bores, or clay target, down to pistol target shooting, or a bit of long range at paper targets.

So, (completely off topic):
i dont know what is availability of firearms at your place, but from all your writing, I can suggest to find some varmint rifle, in 6.5 or 308 win, for you (308 win will have longer barrel life as well).
And from my own experience, i can suggest the rifle for you is tikka supervarmint. My experience with tikka with thick barrel, is once the rifle is zeroed all ammunition will go to same point of aim / point of impact at 100 meters. Almost unbeleivable!
Then for longer shots, of course the bullet drop will be different.
On that rifle put some tactical scope, open turrets and paralax adjustment, with moderate variable power, maybe 18x, not more then 24, reticle in mil dots, or mill hash and in lower scope power you can do some hunting (plenty power for hunting in 308), and with higher magnification you can enjoy shooting distant targets and gongs on your farm range.
Varmint rifle is for your spare time!

 

[BeeMaa]

The piccatinny rail is, I think, a poor choice for a classic bolt rifle that may be used for DG as it obstructs the loading port to some degree.

On my 375 Model 70 I have Talley QD mounts with a Leupold 2-7X scope that was made for shotguns using slugs - 1/2 minute clicks and over 4" of eye relief. Flexible, lightweight, and easy to mount. I wouldn't go to a higher powered scope.

@ConserveWhatsGood - I completely agree with @Nevada Mike about obstructing the loading port. And will also add that a picatinny rail could obstruct the use open sights or at least mess with your sight picture. Best to play it safe when it comes to DG.

The QD mounts from Talley, Alaska Arms and Warne are all top quality. Combine that with a low power scope with 3.5" - 4" of eye relief and you should be good. I prefer a scope that has a true 1x low power for shooting with both eyes open along with an illuminated reticle. That's more difficult with even a 1.5x or 2x. The Leupold VX-5HD 1-5x24 is a good place to start and ticks all the boxes.

 

[Forrest Halley]

@ConserveWhatsGood - I completely agree with @Nevada Mike about obstructing the loading port. And will also add that a picatinny rail could obstruct the use open sights or at least mess with your sight picture. Best to play it safe when it comes to DG.

The QD mounts from Talley, Alaska Arms and Warne are all top quality. Combine that with a low power scope with 3.5" - 4" of eye relief and you should be good. I prefer a scope that has a true 1x low power for shooting with both eyes open along with an illuminated reticle. That's more difficult with even a 1.5x or 2x. The Leupold VX-5HD 1-5x24 is a good place to start and ticks all the boxes.

Warne offers a split base which I find highly repeatable although it still obstructs the action ever so slightly on the front. Were I to get super serious about this particular rifle for speed reloading, I'd remove the offending portions of the base and have them contoured to the action.

 

[BeeMaa]

Warne offers a split base which I find highly repeatable although it still obstructs the action ever so slightly on the front. Were I to get super serious about this particular rifle for speed reloading, I'd remove the offending portions of the base and have them contoured to the action.

I had Warne QD rings and they were top notch, always returned to zero. The caveat is that I had them on a CZ550, so there was no base needed between the rifle and the rings.

EDIT - I just checked a picture of the CZ I had and the loading port does look like it was slightly obstructed at the rear. Maybe 1/4" or so because of where the notch in the action engaged the tab on the back ring...

 

[saswart]

I recently changed the awful "picatinny type rail" I inhereted with the rifle, for a warne bases and Leupold QD's. Will see how they hold zero, if at all.

Question I do have, during our discussion on Mod 70's in general, the gunsmith told me there as some Mod 70's that have a manufacturing issue where the rear bridge height differs from other mod 70's, which then causes that rear mounts needs to have a spacer. Has anyone heard of this before? It is such a well known and trusted gunsmith in SA that I want to believe him.

 

[Fixfire]

I recently changed the awful "picatinny type rail" I inhereted with the rifle, for a warne bases and Leupold QD's. Will see how they hold zero, if at all.

Question I do have, during our discussion on Mod 70's in general, the gunsmith told me there as some Mod 70's that have a manufacturing issue where the rear bridge height differs from other mod 70's, which then causes that rear mounts needs to have a spacer. Has anyone heard of this before? It is such a well known and trusted gunsmith in SA that I want to believe him.

View attachment 498143

SAS, can I see the flip side of your bases and rings??