Next Cecil?

[rinehart0050]

This made the news today:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/16130...ore-leaving-it-to-die-a-slow-agonising-death/

 

[LivingTheDream]

I was wondering that myself. I think this will have a tough time to gain traction as 1) happen in America 2) people don't relate to bears the way they do with lions (no one says the iconic bear) 3) not "endangered" 4) too much in the news, trump, Hillary, trump, trump, Olympics, riots, BLM, cop killings, etc etc...now if somehow this guy is a Trump supporter and they can find a picture of him, with the dead bear and a Make America Great Again sticker then we might be in trouble

 

[Jeffro]

Sadly, there will always be among us those who choose to lower the bar. The rest of us must always remember that the animal deserves the greatest respect and how we hunt it must reflect that. Without ethical considerations for the game, hunting is doomed, and if "hunters" like that ever form the majority, we have no chance in a world where close scrutiny of our actions is ubiquitous and unrelenting.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Already causing a Sh*t storm with the politicians here.
Inquiry demanded by the Minister, Fish and Game coming out against it.
Demanding a ban on spear hunting, etc etc etc.
Minister sending the Fish & Wildlife department after the hunter.

I can hardly wait. This guy will be making it very hard for American hunters to not be examined with a microscope.

Nothing like a narcissist and Youtube.

 

[PeteG]

Already causing a Sh*t storm with the politicians here.
Inquiry demanded by the Minister, Fish and Game coming out against it.
Demanding a ban on spear hunting, etc etc etc.
Minister sending the Fish & Wildlife department after the hunter.

I can hardly wait. This guy will be making it very hard for American hunters to not be examined with a microscope.

Nothing like a narcissist and Youtube.

Banning spears? Next it will be bows and then rifles.
Don't people get that throwing hunting in the face of millions, by posting videos like this, who despise it does not help our cause. It merely stokes the fire.
It would be a lot easier for the guys who are fighting the system to do so with out the continuous outcry that is brought about when we hear about what a hunter has done such as this.

 

[firehuntfish]

Hmmmm.... I have mixed feelings about this.... First of all, the Sun is a tabloid, not a legitimate news publication. Secondly even the so-called "legitimate" media sources are so liberally biased its sickening.... Here are a few things to be considered before passing judgment...

Everyone needs to realize that to an anti-hunter, killing/hunting wild animals is a cruel abomination regardless of the method used to kill the animal. Bow & arrow, rifle, pistol, spear.... It doesn't matter to them. If you think that they are okay with you killing a "beautiful defenseless" animal with a rifle but not a spear, you are mistaken.

I guess hunting with a spear may seem harsh or unethical even to some hunters who are not familiar with these methods. A spear is probably the oldest hunting tool known to man.....In reality, a spear is nothing more than a big, hand-propelled arrow. If anything, it's much more lethal than an arrow. Down here in South Florida, hog hunting with spears and even bowie knives is very popular. I have witnessed several of these hunts over the years, and although it's not for me personally, I don't view it as any more or less ethical than any other "conventional" legal hunting method. It's definitely messy, but cruel or unethical? I don't view it as such...

As for individuals posting their kill photos and celebrations on YouTube and other social media, one again, I say be careful before you pass judgment too quickly.... There was a similar discussion to this in another recent thread where the posing of the animals for photos was causing controversy. I was surprised to see how many experienced hunters took exception as to how other hunters posed for their kill photos... My personal take is this: Who am I to judge how another hunter displays his emotions? Are congratulatory handshakes and smiles among the hunting party more dignified than a fist pump after the kill? Why? If someone feels that it shows disrespect to the animal to put your hands in the air in celebration, I respectfully disagree. I have done this myself and not for the purpose of showing my dominance over the animal or to disrespect its death, but to celebrate the emotional accomplishment of a long, arduous stalk finally culminating into a success. Maybe it's a bow-hunter's thing...We probably release more adrenalin.

There seems to be a trend with the more stoic hunters here that showing excessive joy, enthusiasm, or exuberance in your hunting photos/videos will only draw more negative publicity to hunting. I promise you it doesn't matter one bit to an anti how dignified your portrayals are to them..... Forget about your videos or photos, it doesn't even compare to the horrific reaction caused by the thought of hunters mounting the heads of our kills on the wall. In this ever increasing politically correct world, we will see more and more of this kind of reaction to hunting regardless of how dignified we strive to keep its perception. Not much can be done about this I'm afraid. We are simply outnumbered. Nevertheless, I have said it here a dozen times, that I personally will never apologize to anyone for my God-given right to pursue an outdoor lifestyle and my celebrate my passion for hunting and fishing. As a hunter, if you choose to empathize with an anti-hunter's view of your way of life, maybe some soul searching is necessary on your part... Just my 2cents....

 

[enysse]

I think a spear is a deadly weapon in the right hands, but how you carry out the hunt and display yourself on video should be all about respect for the game. I must admit I don't like a lot of the hunting programs on TV. There is nothing wrong celebrating a kill but do it properly if you are posting it for everyone to see.

 

[Royal27]

Interesting that the article comments aren't all anti.... Def a change from Cecil and folks seem to be concerned with other issues now.

I don't think this will be the next Cecil or even really get any significant play. It's simply not much of a story. Cecil was a perfect storm and won't likely be repeated anytime soon.

I think a spear is a deadly weapon in the right hands, but how you carry out the hunt and display yourself on video should be all about respect for the game. I must admit I don't like a lot of the hunting programs on TV. There is nothing wrong celebrating a kill but do it properly if you are posting it for everyone to see.

Agree totally.

Guys like this are do more damage through their lack of respect than their actual actions. If this guy remains calm and respectful this is a non-issue. How we act DOES matter, whether it be this guy going crazy and fist pumping or someone sitting on an animal and flipping the bird. Even if a lack of respect isn't intended people will take it that way. We all need to think about that.

I would be curious to understand why the animal wasn't followed up on until the next morning (assuming true). Regardless of the headline it doesn't sound as if this was a wounded animal situation though.

 

[firehuntfish]

How we act DOES matter, whether it be this guy going crazy and fist pumping or someone sitting on an animal and flipping the bird. Even if a lack of respect isn't intended people will take it that way. We all need to think about that.

Again, you are missing my point to the extent that concern over the perception in the eyes of an anti-hunter is wasted concern. You are a barbaric killer to them whether you sit aside your trophy without expression or if you have your fist raised in the air...

There is nothing wrong celebrating a kill but do it properly if you are posting it for everyone to see.

Eric, Would you agree that "celebrating properly" is a very subjective concept? What is proper and what is not can vary greatly depending on who you ask....

 

[Royal27]

Again, you are missing my point to the extent that concern over the perception in the eyes of an anti-hunter is wasted concern. You are a barbaric killer to them whether you sit aside your trophy without expression or if you have your fist raised in the air...

Point not missed at all (and I wasn't replying back specifically to your point, but making a broader statement). We will never make the antis happy, nor would I try to. Those in the middle though. those that are on the fence, that's where how we act becomes important. And, IMO, its just the right thing to do.

 

[BRICKBURN]

................
Eric, Would you agree that "celebrating properly" is a very subjective concept? What is proper and what is not can vary greatly depending on who you ask....

We don't have to worry about "anti hunters". We have to worry about the majority. Us folks in the minority had best pay attention, with this one video this man has pissed off a duly elected official enough that they are now hell bent to change the law and see if he can be charged.

We currently have law in this same province that supposedly entrenches hunting rights. Laws can be changed or they just restrict the methods we can go about the activity until we are legislated into oblivion.

 

[Royal27]

There was an American Football player named Barry Sanders. Barry was arguably the most electrifying running back to ever play the game. He was simply amazing....

When touchdowns are scored in football dances an over the top celebrations is common place. Barry simply handed the ball back to the referee, every time. He didn't spike it, didn't throw it, he handed it to the official.

When asked why he did this Barry's reply was be believed you should act like you've been there before. He was respectful of the game.

And please don't anyone take this analogy to mean that I think celebration is wrong. I don't. I simply think it should be respectful.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

This thread is turning into what I expected, a rehash of a discussion we've had numerous times on AH. And once again it reminds me of a moment some 30 plus years ago when hunting was nowhere near as scrutinized or put under such a negative light as it is now.

My best friend and I were talking about hunting one evening at his house. My buddy's parents were natives of central Louisiana where hunting and fishing is more than just a lifestyle, it borders on religion. I don't remember the exact details of the conversation, but I'll always remember something Mrs. C said. Summarizing her thoughts, she took no issue with hunting, she grew up eating venison and waterfowl, knew people who depended upon wild game to feed their families. But the one thing she could not stand was when one of the local yahoos would kill a deer, throw it in the back of the pickup and drive around town with the tailgate down so all could see their mighty accomplishment. It was in her eyes disrespectful to the animal.

Now I'm sure some would say too bad for her feelings and ask "Who is she to tell me what to do?" or some such question. My answer to that question is she's a non-hunter and a voter. That said my question back is "Do I want to convert her through my actions into an anti-hunter?"

To me it's a matter of do you want to be an idealogue throwing caution to the wind, or should you practice some discretion? Converting anti's to being okay with hunting may occur, but I doubt in any significant numbers and I don't believe anything I can do will change that. But I'm quite convinced I can convert a non-hunter to an anti-hunter quite easily in how I choose to conduct myself as a hunter.

 

[firehuntfish]

We don't have to worry about "anti hunters". We have to worry about the majority. Us folks in the minority had best pay attention, with this one video this man has pissed off a duly elected official enough that they are now hell bent to change the law and see if he can be charged.

We currently have law in this same province that supposedly entrenches hunting rights. Laws can be changed or they just restrict the methods we can go about the activity until we are legislated into oblivion.

He pissed off a liberal anti-hunting politician....Which is rapidly becoming the majority train of thought in the US anyway.... You are correct that we are the minority, most in part due to the radical cultural erosion that is taking place in this world. I do agree that those that are on the fence about hunting need to be educated with the facts of hunting and its correlation to conservation. That is a difficult agenda considering the massive amount of anti-hunting propaganda that floods the media. However, cowering in the corner, ashamed of displaying my pride, or apologetic for my way of life is not an option for me. I don't think the passive position is the key to winning the hearts and minds of those yet undecided. How did that work out for us during the Cecil debacle?? I am still a contributor to the SCI, and many other sportsman's conservation organizations, but they all collectively dropped the ball big time with the handling of Cecil. If we had been proactive, and out front on these issues, I think it would have made a difference. But, we will never know.

 

[PeteG]

... But I'm quite convinced I can convert a non-hunter to an anti-hunter quite easily in how I choose to conduct myself as a hunter.

This is my point. When hunting is subject to so much negative publicity, and whether we like it or not, we are viewed as evil murderers, why make matters worse by throwing videos in anti-hunter and non-hunters faces on YouTube? What does this accomplish?
Sometimes when on the back foot, it is best to reevaluate your position and adopt a different path.
I'm not saying stop hunting or stop celebrating your hunts, or whatever it is you do. But realize that your actions, photos and videos are a representation of all hunters worldwide and this is one of the problems we face, we are all, as hunters, painted with a rather large brush. Unfortunately for us, the choice of brush usually is represented by the worst possible scenario. How the media transforms this mans hunt into something despicable to the anti or non hunter is precisely the thing we can avoid. If this video were not posted, would this hunt have made the news in the same way?

 

[firehuntfish]

But I'm quite convinced I can convert a non-hunter to an anti-hunter quite easily in how I choose to conduct myself as a hunter.

Absolutely agree Phil.... But to what end? Where is the line and who decides? To a greater point, I fear the hunting culture is becoming increasing passive to the point of being ashamed due to this kind of social pressure, PC-ness, or whatever you want to call it. Who decides what is in good taste, or disrespectful? It all depends on who you ask.... Some examples are obvious, but just as many are not....We have that controversy here among fellow hunters, let alone what the antis or non-hunters think... So, do we as hunters agree to stop posting all media of hunts or do we assemble an international panel to approve what is in good taste and will be deemed socially acceptable? I'm obviously being facetious, but it goes to show example... Where does it end?

I'm not preaching anyone on how they should feel. That's the last thing I would ever do... I am responsible to myself to hunt legally within my own ethics, but changing for whom I "might" offend is not going to happen. And yes, this is discussion is nothing new, but still worthy of conversation because the world around us is changing by the day.... Good conversation...

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Absolutely agree Phil.... But to what end? Where is the line and who decides? To a greater point, I fear the hunting culture is becoming increasing passive to the point of being ashamed due to this kind of social pressure, PC-ness, or whatever you want to call it. Who decides what is in good taste, or disrespectful? It all depends on who you ask.... Some examples are obvious, but just as many are not....We have that controversy here among fellow hunters, let alone what the antis or non-hunters think... So, do we as hunters agree to stop posting all media of hunts or do we assemble an international panel to approve what is in good taste and will be deemed socially acceptable? I'm obviously being facetious, but it goes to show example... Where does it end?

I'm not preaching anyone on how they should feel. That's the last thing I would ever do... I am responsible to myself to hunt legally within my own ethics, but changing for whom I "might" offend is not going to happen. And yes, this is discussion is nothing new, but still worthy of conversation because the world around us is changing by the day.... Good conversation...

Your questions are in my opinion quite valid but as you allude to very difficult to answer. Some years ago Justice Stewart was attempting to define pornography and was struggling with it. In my opinion he kind of ducked the challenge when he came up with "I know it when I see it" or something very close to that.

I don't want to equate hunting videos with pornography but hunting videos do evoke revulsion amongst some in society the same as pornography. I think my example of the dead deer being paraded around town is an example of hunting porn. While not all will, I'd guess many would agree with me it is without having a hard definition.

In the end we are all responsible for our actions. Right or wrong how we as hunters conduct ourselves reflects on us all. If we fail to police ourselves, we will be policed by others who likely will not share our views.

 

[enysse]

Eric, Would you agree that "celebrating properly" is a very subjective concept? What is proper and what is not can vary greatly depending on who you ask....

Less is more, especially if you are going to have a public hunting show or video. Your actions affect everyone else's future hunting opportunities.

 

[firehuntfish]

we will be policed by others who likely will not share our views.

Good stuff Phil..... I always enjoy your commentary.

Unfortunately, the aforementioned is already taking place, and thus, a huge part of the challenges we face.

 

[firehuntfish]

Less is more, especially if you are going to have a public hunting show or video. Your actions affect everyone else's future hunting opportunities.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion on this which I greatly respect, but you sidestepped the question that I posed... In your view, who among us is qualified to make that judgment of what is a proper or improper celebration or respectful or disrespectful pose, etc...? It is not always obvious as black and white. Phil posted the perfect example citing what Justice Stewart said in his attempt to define pornography. This is not directed toward you or anyone else here expressing an opinion, but I personally have a problem with someone stating that they can't specifically define something, but they know it when they see it... That doesn't fly with anyone attempting to judge me.

I've watched the bear/spear video several times. I can see why non-hunters and certainly why anti-hunters might be put off by what they are seeing. But, I also think these points of view have to do with perspective. If you are not accustomed to the reality of what occurs during the hunting and killing of an animal, it would definitely look cruel, and gruesome. As hunters, we are accustomed to the fact that there will be blood, and the animal may flail about, wail, or growl until they expire. Horrific to some, but natural to you and me.... As far as the "celebration" he displays, it's not much different than what I did after hunting one particular impala ram for 7 days and finally getting a shot after a 300 yard crawl in the mud of the Limpopo River. When I watched the arrow disappear into the shoulder of the ram, I jumped onto my feet and into the air with both fists high overhead. The adrenalin rush and release of emotion was overwhelming. Unfortunately, nobody was there to share the moment and high-5 with me. Is that an inappropriate display of celebration? Is it only inappropriate if I videoed the hunt and posted it? These are not rhetorical questions. I am genuinely interested in everyone's opinion....