Opinions On SxS Shotgun Brands

[sandman0921]

I have decided I want to purchase a SxS shotgun.........Specifically, a 20 ga SxS

In my price range I have been looking at CSMC RBL's, Parker Reproductions, AyA, and more recently Merkel......

I am very aware of the short-comings of the older CSMC RBL's, as well as the finicky SST of the Parker Repro's. I also know the solid reputation of the AyA SxS's as well.

What I'm not as familiar with, is the Merkel guns. As most Merkels, I suppose they are well made, and a good value. One knock I've heard on them is that the stocks are sometimes odd-fitting. Unfortunately, I don't have anyone around here that I know that has a Merkel 47E 0r 147 E/EL to look at, and there aren't many high-end shotgun retailers near by. I do know my measurements, as I had a formal fitting done in anticipation of ordering my double rifle. As an aside, it was a starting point for the double rifle, and in the end, my LOP was a little longer on the double rifle versus the shotgun.

I've found a nice little Merkel 1620 ELC 2 barrel set with both 20a. and 16 ga. barrels I've got my eye on. I really like the engraving on the Merkels versus some of the other laser etched stuff I've seen on other guns.

Anyways, as usual, thanks in advance for the comments and information.....

 

[Mekaniks]

I did almost the same thing a couple years ago. I ended up going to several different gun shops and "trying on" every side by side I could find. Finally bought a Beretta Silver Pigeon. First because it fits me well, but also because of the reputation as a durable shotgun, and I liked the engraving and looks of the gun as well.

 

[sandman0921]

Beretta Silver Pigeons are great guns. Had I to do it over again, and if I was in the market for an O/U, the Beretta 686 would be on the very short list. Great gun with a great legacy!

 

[robertq]

Sandman 0921, I'm selling both my 1620 elc and my 20ga. rlb.
If you would like pictures please PM me your email.
Thank you
Robert

 

[sierraone]

Since you are in Tennessee, call Pendleton Firearms at 931-469-0227. I bought a Beretta O/U from Ken at the Tulsa Show two years ago. He carries lots of shotguns o/u and sxs s. and only used ones I believe. Starting around $1100 or $1200 or so and going into several thousands. He doesn't have a storefront, at least that I know of. I think he's around Oak Ridge Tn. He has a web page and his inventory changes quickly! Good Luck!

 

[zephyr]

Of the guns you mentioned I would lean towards the AYA or an Arrietta. Not knowing what your budget is they will probably be on the higher end of the guns you have mentioned. I would have no problem buying a AYA or Arrietta used as long as I have time to look over the gun before purchase, or you can have a bespoke gun made.
What are you intending to pursue with this gun?
IMHO your LOP will more than likely be longer than the measurements that were obtained from the fitting for a Double Rifle
Good Luck with your research keep us updated

 

[bassasdaindia]

I own a Silver Pigeon O/U , but I do like the Aya SxS , decent SxS are harder to find here in SA on the gun shop shelves .

 

[Red Leg]

I use my SxS game guns much more than I do my rifles. All that you have listed can be excellent guns. My primary duck gun is the big 12 bore RBL. It is a very modern rendition of a classic waterfowl gun with choke tubes and three inch chambers. I have used if for about the last eight years here and in Canada. With heavy shot, it hits at fifty yards like a 88mm dual purpose. If you aren't certain about a SxS, their new Inverness is a wonderful bird gun. There are AYA's and there are AYA's. The better grade, relatively recent manufacture, sidelocks are exceptional. Same story with the Arrietta. The Merkel set sounds intriguing. They are built like tanks. Just make sure the deminsions and choking are what you want. For some reason, I have trouble shooting a Merkle well (have owned two for a time, and both ended up in trades for something else). Just remember, this SxS thing is a certifiable madness. Once you take the leap there is a world of pre-war English and continental treasures to find out there. My RBL is efficient, but my hammer Lindner 10 Bore is a joy. The Winchester 21 will take any pheasant in S Dakota, but the Cashmore does it with so much more style. Enjoy!

 

[sandman0921]

Red Leg,

You sound like a person that know a thing or two about SxS shotguns. I'd be curious as to your opinion on the Arrietta 557 Sidelock shotgun. I'm also looking at a used one of those as well. I know that's their base SL model, and that they supposedly discontinued it recently in favor of their higher grade, and more expensive models. If I've read correctly, the Arrietta shotguns are made in the Basque region of Spain where a lot of the well know Spanish gunmakers reside like AyA, Armas Garbi, Grulla, Ugartechea, etc., and that they are patterned after the best British SxS guns, of course at a fraction of the price. They have hand-detachable sidelocks patterned after the H&H shotguns. Of course no one is saying they are the equivalent of a Boss, H&H, Purdey, Westley Richards, etc., but for the money are a very good gun? I read that the new owner of Arrietta changed their pricing scheme and raised the prices significantly on all of their new guns, and really ticked a lot of people off. It made their SxS's not such a great value anyone. Also, I hear they are a pain in the rear to service if something breaks? I don't know, but there's a lot of different opinions out there on various shotgun and upland forums from people that seem to have a lot of knowledge regarding the brand, and shotguns in general. Of course you have to take anything on the internet with a grain of salt.

One forum member described the difference between the Spanish guns like the AyA No.2 RB SL and Arrietta 557, and the Merkel guns as:

AyA and Arrietta shotguns are like dating a tall, thin super model, where as

Merkels are like dating a muscular, athletic very fit woman.......

They're both great and beautiful in their own way, but it's what you like.....

I thought that was pretty funny.


I'm in preliminary talks with a couple of dealers about the Merkel 1620's, one being a used ELC version (coin finish and lots of engraving), and the other being a new C version (CCH finish and more subtle engraving)....both 2 barrel sets with 16 ga. and 20 ga. barrels and foreends matched to the gun and weighing in around 6 lb 3 0z....pretty svelte....One of the dealers also has a used, and NIB Arrietta 557 SL in 20 ga that are just damn sexy

I'm leaning towards the Merkel only because they are built like tanks, I could have both a 20 ga. and 16 ga., and I personally like the Teutonic style engraving on them....some people apparently don't. Like all of my guns, I hope to pass them along to my son and daughter one day. I guess if I make the wrong choice, I could always sell it. If I can get the guy to come off the price a few hundred dollars I probably will bite.....If not, I may look at the used Arrietta 557....

While we're on the subject, what is your opinion of the CSMC RBL's since you have one. I know you think fondly of the long 12 ga you have. It sounds like you have had a great experience with it. When those guns were introduced a few years ago, I thought man when the day comes, I want one of those. It was American made, and they looked great. I started looking for those recently (and the Parker Repros), and then starting reading about all of the problems they had when they were first released, as well as the laser checkering and engraving didn't float a lot of people's boat as well. I have read that since that time, the newer versions (RBL and RBL Reserves) are much better. Since they don't make them anymore, I was worried about purchasing anything used or even NIB for fear of getting one of the earlier versions and having problems from the get go. There are a few that are straight gripped and double triggers out there that have upgraded wood and look great. The CSMC Win 21 and A.H. Fox's look great, but my budget (and more importantly my wife) won't allow for that much coin on a shotgun. I'd love to own one, however, I'm leaning more towards the European guns now....I agree that the CSMC A-10 and Inverness O/U's look really nice as well.

Thanks so much for all the advice, and I'm sure you're right about the addiction, but when it comes to purchasing another gun, I unfortunately have had that disease for a long time......

 

[Red Leg]

Wish we were in the same room with a single malt. This is a discussion that can go on for hours.

Thirty years and more ago, most of the Spanish houses suffered from some level of quality control. Even their best sidelocks would occasionally slip through with a bad spring or poorly treated steel at a wear point. They were notorious for going off face way too soon. Today, one hears none of that with regard to any of the established names. The AYA No 2 has become one of the most popular guns in the world and deservedly so. You can find a beautiful 20 bore on any of the major sites (including CMC's used gun list). I have a Grulla sidelock in .410 which copies the H&H action and it is as elegant an finely built gun as I own. The slim model description is pretty much correct.

Whatever you buy, I would do so assuming that you will get no service from the manufacturer (with the exception of CSM). Part of the "joy" of these guns is getting to know a really good gunsmith. There are maybe half a dozen in this country with whom I would trust one of my good sxs's.

The RBLs seem to be very well made guns (they largely copy the old proven SKB action - however much Tony may deny it). I ordered and bought a 20 when they were first advertised. Took a year to get it. I never shot it well - nothing wrong with the gun - the fit was just a bit off. As I noted above, the big twelve fits beautifully.

Assuming the Merkel fits and that the chokes are usable (German guns tend to be choked very tightly), it could be a great versatile choice. It will certainly be a treasure to pass to a child. But ask about the chokes. German guns are used traditionally on drive hunts where shots at pheasants, hare, and huns can be quite long. And the European hare is the size of a small kangaroo. As a result, you can find yourself shooting softball-sized patterns at a southern covey rise. Even on export guns, probably 90% will be choked tight and tighter. Obviously, if the deal is right the chokes can be opened - see para 3 above.

I shoot double triggers and single, and it has become so instinctive, I couldn't tell you which I have in hand unless I look.

A final caution. The older the gun, the greater the likelihood it has had the clumsy attention of an American shade tree gunsmith - see para 3 above again. Buying from someone who specializes in SxS's is the best way to avoid an expensive education in loose ribs, action faces, and worn or broken springs. I speak as a product of such an education.

Best of luck and let me know what you get.

 

[sandman0921]

RedLeg,

A man after my own heart. I've been slowly working to finish off a bottle of McCallan Cask Strength Single Malt, and I'm on to my next bottle of Highlands Single Malt, an Abelour 16 yr old single malt. Paired with an Olivia O Robusto, and I would definitely enjoy talking SxS shotguns. But until then, this forum will have to suffice.....I have greatly appreciated you, and others, taking the time to supply the information thus far

You are right in that the Spanish SL shotguns such as the AyA , Arrietta's, Grulla's are beautiful guns and seem to have a following for sure, and I'm sure deservedly so. I'm definitely not beholden to Merkel, and am only really interested because of the 2 barrel set. Having said that, I know they have a big following as well. I will definitely check the choke constriction on the Merkel. At least on one gun, I know both barrel sets (16 and 20 ga.) are bored to the equivalent of an IC and M, I think......

The dealers I am talking with have a good reputation as double gun people, so I'm hopeful I won't be steered in the wrong direction......

I've shot double triggers very rarely, so it will be a learning curve, but one I want to master for sure....

When I do settle on a gun, I would definitely like to pick your brain as to who you would recommend as far as a double gun "smith". I'm sure JJ Perodeau would make the list, but I don't know many others.......

Thanks again for the advice

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Chuck Hawks on affordable doubles: http://www.chuckhawks.com/affordable_doubles.htm

Randy Wakeman's thoughts: http://www.randywakeman.com/WhytheOUandSxSShotgunMarketisanIncomprehensibleMess.htm

I have an old (~1930's) Ithaca Field Grade 20 ga SxS that belonged to my grandfather. Nothing fancy, but gets a few looks at the range. The double triggers take a little getting use to.

 

[sierraone]

Sandman, it already appears that you have met probably the best one on the forum to obtain info from in the gun and rifle subjects, among other things this forum deals with along with Cal Pappas on the older large caliber rifles. I would like to add a couple more. About three years ago, I bought a Sarriugarte Best 20 ga from Patrick McCabe in Dallas. That's when my interest was tweaked in Spanish Guns. All of these Spanish guns we have discussed are or were made in Eibar, Spain, north Basque Region of Spain. My Sarriugarte does not rate in the same category as some of the guns we have talked about. It is still gorgeous, coin finish with some engraving. It does have an ejector problem with the right barrel. JJ told me how to fix it, just haven't gotten around to it as yet. My gun was made in the 70's from what I can the determine. It is one of the brands that didn't survive the era some 30 or so years ago when the Spanish gun industry bottomed out. If you are interested in the Spanish guns from Eibar, Spain, past and present, obtain a copy of "Spanish Best, The Fine Shotguns of Spain" by Terry Wieland. There are two editions, maybe three by now. Great book for the history and the town of Eibar in the 1980s and 1990s. Also great photos of many of the high end guns of the time. Have a great time researching and let us know what you eventually buy!!! As Red Leg said, this stuff can be very addictive!!!

 

[sandman0921]

Chuck Hawks on affordable doubles: http://www.chuckhawks.com/affordable_doubles.htm

Randy Wakeman's thoughts: http://www.randywakeman.com/WhytheOUandSxSShotgunMarketisanIncomprehensibleMess.htm

I love reading the stuff from Chuck Hawks and Randy Wakeman.....good, practical knowledge to have for sure.....

I will definitely keep everyone up-to-date as to what I decide on.....

 

[Saul]

I have an old Savage Fox Model B and the gun is still running like a champ for such an affordable old thing.

 

[sierraone]

Red Leg,

You sound like a person that know a thing or two about SxS shotguns. I'd be curious as to your opinion on the Arrietta 557 Sidelock shotgun. I'm also looking at a used one of those as well. I know that's their base SL model, and that they supposedly discontinued it recently in favor of their higher grade, and more expensive models. If I've read correctly, the Arrietta shotguns are made in the Basque region of Spain where a lot of the well know Spanish gunmakers reside like AyA, Armas Garbi, Grulla, Ugartechea, etc., and that they are patterned after the best British SxS guns, of course at a fraction of the price. They have hand-detachable sidelocks patterned after the H&H shotguns. Of course no one is saying they are the equivalent of a Boss, H&H, Purdey, Westley Richards, etc., but for the money are a very good gun? I read that the new owner of Arrietta changed their pricing scheme and raised the prices significantly on all of their new guns, and really ticked a lot of people off. It made their SxS's not such a great value anyone. Also, I hear they are a pain in the rear to service if something breaks? I don't know, but there's a lot of different opinions out there on various shotgun and upland forums from people that seem to have a lot of knowledge regarding the brand, and shotguns in general. Of course you have to take anything on the internet with a grain of salt.

One forum member described the difference between the Spanish guns like the AyA No.2 RB SL and Arrietta 557, and the Merkel guns as:

AyA and Arrietta shotguns are like dating a tall, thin super model, where as

Merkels are like dating a muscular, athletic very fit woman.......

They're both great and beautiful in their own way, but it's what you like.....

I thought that was pretty funny.


I'm in preliminary talks with a couple of dealers about the Merkel 1620's, one being a used ELC version (coin finish and lots of engraving), and the other being a new C version (CCH finish and more subtle engraving)....both 2 barrel sets with 16 ga. and 20 ga. barrels and foreends matched to the gun and weighing in around 6 lb 3 0z....pretty svelte....One of the dealers also has a used, and NIB Arrietta 557 SL in 20 ga that are just damn sexy

I'm leaning towards the Merkel only because they are built like tanks, I could have both a 20 ga. and 16 ga., and I personally like the Teutonic style engraving on them....some people apparently don't. Like all of my guns, I hope to pass them along to my son and daughter one day. I guess if I make the wrong choice, I could always sell it. If I can get the guy to come off the price a few hundred dollars I probably will bite.....If not, I may look at the used Arrietta 557....

While we're on the subject, what is your opinion of the CSMC RBL's since you have one. I know you think fondly of the long 12 ga you have. It sounds like you have had a great experience with it. When those guns were introduced a few years ago, I thought man when the day comes, I want one of those. It was American made, and they looked great. I started looking for those recently (and the Parker Repros), and then starting reading about all of the problems they had when they were first released, as well as the laser checkering and engraving didn't float a lot of people's boat as well. I have read that since that time, the newer versions (RBL and RBL Reserves) are much better. Since they don't make them anymore, I was worried about purchasing anything used or even NIB for fear of getting one of the earlier versions and having problems from the get go. There are a few that are straight gripped and double triggers out there that have upgraded wood and look great. The CSMC Win 21 and A.H. Fox's look great, but my budget (and more importantly my wife) won't allow for that much coin on a shotgun. I'd love to own one, however, I'm leaning more towards the European guns now....I agree that the CSMC A-10 and Inverness O/U's look really nice as well.

Thanks so much for all the advice, and I'm sure you're right about the addiction, but when it comes to purchasing another gun, I unfortunately have had that disease for a long time......

Love that quote about the difference in a Spanish gun and a Merkel! I may have to hijack it for my own purposes!!!

 

[sandman0921]

I liked it to. I saw it on one of the shotgun or upland forums. It made me laugh as well. I didn't come up with it, so use it as much as you like.......

 

[sandman0921]

So after a lot of discussion with Dave Moore at William, Larkin, Moore and Sons, and also with a lot of help from are very own Red Leg I decided to purchase a sweet little and lightly used Aramas Garbi Model 100 20 bore SxS. The measurements are perfect based on my previous shotgun fitting, and after talking with a few people that know a lot more about shotguns than I would ever hope to know, I decided that the Spanish guns patterned on the Purdey and H&H best guns, was what I really wanted. It's a side-lock as well with hand-detachable locks and in near perfect condition according to Dave Moore.

So ultimately, I decided to go with the slim, tall, and beautiful Spanish señorita as opposed to the athletic, muscular, and beautiful German blonde........but I do love Blondes as well.........

This is a picture of the gun from William, Larkin, Moore and Son's website of the shotgun. I feel like I got a good deal on it, and I hope it shoots as good as it looks.....

Again I would like to thank Red Leg for his help. His advice was invaluable.

 

[Buckdog]

congrads, that looks like a wonderful gun, I grew up with a 20 side x side and love them! they handle quick and fast, put a 3 inch mag load of 6 shot in the 2nd barrel and you got a 12 ga good to about 40yds.
when you get it I would highly suggest that you pattern it to see how and where the barrels are regulated to, each one is different and each likes certain ammo kinda finicky like those super models
you couldnt have gone wrong with the AyA or a merkel either
A old wealthy german once told me this true gentlemen ONLY shoot s x s!

 

[sierraone]

You apparently did very well my friend. I am indeed jealous!!! Maybe a trip to Eibar next year to have one made to your specs!!! Red Leg and I may even need to go to keep you out of trouble!