Perfect Rifle Balance?

[Papa72]

Is there such a thing or is rifle balance just a matter of preference? In 60 years of firearms ownership and hunting I have never considered balance to be a factor worth investigating, much less actually modifying. I am now interested in helping my 9.37# .458 WM adopt a more sympathetic approach to elder abuse and would appreciate opinions on the “perfect” balance point and how much modifying CG will affect recoil. Currently, my rifle’s CG is 7-3/8” in front of the trigger or just slightly forward of the front action screw on this M98 action rifle.

 

[colorado]

I like my rifles to balance at the middle of the floor plate.

 

[Papa72]

I like my rifles to balance at the middle of the floor plate.

I was thinking of adding some weight or a recoil reducer in the butt so that would move the CG to where you suggest. I realize the weight alone will help with felt recoil but am curious how much CG needs to be a factor when selecting how much weight to add?

 

[colorado]

Even though my 500 Jeffery weighs 12 lbs with scope unloaded, because of the balance point it feels light and lively in my hands and points well too.

 

[Papa72]

Great info, thanks. Middle of floorplate as a target point it will be.

 

[MS 9x56]

I am a still hunter and rifle ballance is critical to a quick mount with sights aligned. But in my humble opinion rifle ballance point has no affect whatsoever on felt recoil. Stock fit and conformation certainly does. Example my CZ 550 FS in 9.3x62 felt recoil with 286 grain bullet is much less than my Ruger American 30-06 with a 180 grain load. I believe it is due to the unbent stick conformation of the synthetic stock compared to the Bavarian slope of the CZ stock. Point of fact the CZ is 2.5 lbs heavier which is also a factor. I would much rather shoot 20 rounds through the CZ than 20 through the Ruger.

 

[pilar]

I was thinking of adding some weight or a recoil reducer in the butt so that would move the CG to where you suggest. I realize the weight alone will help with felt recoil but am curious how much CG needs to be a factor when selecting how much weight to add?

I started with a 1lbs and finished with 1.5 lbs in the forward section of the butt of the stock , differences was 15lbs of recoil, from 60 to 45
A neoprene cheek pad and change in butt pad helps me too

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi,

More than the "balance point" I would think about the distribution of the rifle weight. Two rifles can have the same balance point but the weight distribution very diferent. For a hunting rifle I like the weight "between the hands". When you find a rifle with that configuration is a joy to handle!

 

[Woodcarver]

I have 2, 9.3x62s. One is a pleasure to shoot, the other, well, it's not a pleasure. Both weigh right at 9lb. The CZ550 has the weight fairly evenly distributed, and as Clodo spoke to, the weight is even "between the hands". The VZ24 on the other hand, is very light in the front. The weight sits on the right hand on the wrist, and the muzzle rise is atrocious; a beast to shoot, especially if a quick followup were needed.
I do find that the heavier the recoil, the more forward I prefer the balance point or weight distribution. My 458 Lott, for instance, is very easy to shoot as it is slightly muzzle heavy, balancing at the front of the floor plate, whereas the 375H&H in the same model is balanced at the rear of the floor plate and equally easy to shoot. The Lott does weigh 1.5lb more than the 375. I'd rather shoot my Lott than the VZ24 in 9.3.

 

[BlueFlyer]

the muzzle rise is atrocious;

Are the stocks essentually the same design?

 

[MS 9x56]

I have 2, 9.3x62s. One is a pleasure to shoot, the other, well, it's not a pleasure. Both weigh right at 9lb. The CZ550 has the weight fairly evenly distributed, and as Clodo spoke to, the weight is even "between the hands". The VZ24 on the other hand, is very light in the front. The weight sits on the right hand on the wrist, and the muzzle rise is atrocious; a beast to shoot, especially if a quick followup were needed.
I do find that the heavier the recoil, the more forward I prefer the balance point or weight distribution. My 458 Lott, for instance, is very easy to shoot as it is slightly muzzle heavy, balancing at the front of the floor plate, whereas the 375H&H in the same model is balanced at the rear of the floor plate and equally easy to shoot. The Lott does weigh 1.5lb more than the 375. I'd rather shoot my Lott than the VZ24 in 9.3.

I think you may have hit upon why the larger calibers are preferred in double rifles as the heavey barrels help control muzzle rise and the extra weight helps lighten felt recoil. My 9.3 x 62 CZ is pleasant to shoot as the weight being hefty is balanced right between the hands.

 

[grand veneur]

I think you may have hit upon why the larger calibers are preferred in double rifles as the heavey barrels help control muzzle rise and the extra weight helps lighten felt recoil. My 9.3 x 62 CZ is pleasant to shoot as the weight being hefty is balanced right between the hands.

Yes and no.

As far as recoil is concerned, the heavy barrels are certainly an advantage, but the DR of very big calibers with theirs very heavy barrels, meant for example DR caliber 577 Nitro Express or 600 Nitro Express, still have a muzzle rising and the top-heaviness is not very advantageous when it comes to quickly acquiring the target again. I have a similar problem with my rifle caliber 460 Weatherby Magnum. Added to this is the increasing age of the shooter and the pain in the shoulders.

Top-heavy rifles are practically not ideal. Better to own a rifle smaller caliber that is well balanced and where you can still control the recoil. By the way, not like I did more than 25 years ago when I had the rifle caliber 500 Schüler built. A nice, light and well-balanced rifle, but with a very strong recoil.

 

[colorado]

We're all different. Took me a bit but I shoot my 12 lb 500 Jeffery offhand just like I shoot my 8 lb 270. Both are balanced at the middle of the magazine floor plate. The muzzle comes up a bit more with the 500 Jeffery but everything else is the same.

 

[Jefferry404]

the CG moves rearward by:
DeltaCG=(Added weight in buttock)/(total weight)* (distance from current CG to added weight)
For example:
Adding 2lbs in buttock will move the CG back 3.7”
Assuming current CG is 21” from the buttstock.

 

[Woodcarver]

Are the stocks essentually the same design?

Both straight stocked, but the VZ has a shorter, tapered forend, akin to a British stalking rifle. That is part of the issue to be sure. The plan is to restock or sell it one of these days. Very accurate with a very slick action and no feeding issues at all, just too light in front, for me.

 

[Alistair]

The 'best' balance point depends on both preference and use case in my experience.

For most applications, a fairly neutral balance point around the middle of the magazine is best. It keeps the rifle pointable, fairly quick to get on aim, and still reasonably stable in the hold. This is good for snap shooting, for carrying, for close in stuff. It's just more agile. If there's much of a possibility that you might need to stop a charge with your 458, this is what you want.

For a rifle that you want to shoot moving targets, or will shoot a lot off-hand, but don't need that rapid target acquisition at closer ranges, I like a more forwards balance point. Maybe half way between the middle of the mag and where I grip the forend. This makes the rifle feel sluggish when you're trying to get it moving, but it sits more stably on aim, and also swings more smoothly. Plus, it may offer less muzzle flip and is certainly more forgiving to snatched trigger pulls, wobble on aim, and all the other things that we shooters shouldn't do, but invariably do on occasion... If you're not likely to ever need to stop a charge, but might be expected to make accurate shots free-hand, this option may be a better bet.

Note that CG doesn't impact the actual recoil much, that's more a factor of total weight. But it may significantly impact the perceived recoil, especially regarding muzzle rise and target re-acquisition.

It's like shotguns in this respect. Do you want a whippy little game gun you can get moving very quickly for that snap target acquisition and shot, or do you want something with more perceived inertia to smooth out all those wobbles and give better stability on aim?

 

[Papa72]

The 'best' balance point depends on both preference and use case in my experience.

For most applications, a fairly neutral balance point around the middle of the magazine is best. It keeps the rifle pointable, fairly quick to get on aim, and still reasonably stable in the hold. This is good for snap shooting, for carrying, for close in stuff. It's just more agile. If there's much of a possibility that you might need to stop a charge with your 458, this is what you want.

For a rifle that you want to shoot moving targets, or will shoot a lot off-hand, but don't need that rapid target acquisition at closer ranges, I like a more forwards balance point. Maybe half way between the middle of the mag and where I grip the forend. This makes the rifle feel sluggish when you're trying to get it moving, but it sits more stably on aim, and also swings more smoothly. Plus, it may offer less muzzle flip and is certainly more forgiving to snatched trigger pulls, wobble on aim, and all the other things that we shooters shouldn't do, but invariably do on occasion... If you're not likely to ever need to stop a charge, but might be expected to make accurate shots free-hand, this option may be a better bet.

Note that CG doesn't impact the actual recoil much, that's more a factor of total weight. But it may significantly impact the perceived recoil, especially regarding muzzle rise and target re-acquisition.

It's like shotguns in this respect. Do you want a whippy little game gun you can get moving very quickly for that snap target acquisition and shot, or do you want something with more perceived inertia to smooth out all those wobbles and give better stability on aim?

Very interesting info. My 458 has a 26” heavy(ish) profile barrel and feels pretty good as-is, but I would like to get the weight up a bit from 9.37#. I know that will move the CG closer to the floor plate center which sounds like an overall win. I’m 90% sure this rifle will be my safari mate next year for buff so looking to finalize these mods soon.