Question for military/LE

[gbflyer]

My cousin’s grandson finished up basic in the Army and now he’s onto the next phase of training, forgive me I don’t know the lingo. He’s in Airborne. Anyway the Army now shows training pictures on their Facebook page. As it happens he was in one recently. They were teaching them how to clear rooms in teams and squads. So to my question: why do they use an M4 for that? Seems awkward and unruly inside a building with a real possibility of over penetration. Wouldn’t a 9mm SMG of some kind be better, or a handgun or shotgun?

 

[19_A_CPT]

All doctrine is based around the service rifle which currently is the M4 5.56 Nato. It provides for the best accuracy and large capacity in terms of ammo. Some MOS's have their Soldier's have M9 Berettas as backup (tankers come to mind) but you will nearly always see the primary weapon unless a malfunction or they run dry.
Nowadays, shotguns are usually reserved for breaching roles. Again, if somebody is clearing with a shotgun, I would say the SHTF.

 

[PARA45]

The M4 provides the best of both world. Short enough to be used in CQB. Everyone is using them.

 

[CZDiesel]

My cousin’s grandson finished up basic in the Army and now he’s onto the next phase of training, forgive me I don’t know the lingo. He’s in Airborne. Anyway the Army now shows training pictures on their Facebook page. As it happens he was in one recently. They were teaching them how to clear rooms in teams and squads. So to my question: why do they use an M4 for that? Seems awkward and unruly inside a building with a real possibility of over penetration. Wouldn’t a 9mm SMG of some kind be better, or a handgun or shotgun?

No because the M4 with its 14-1/2” bbl is need for everything while on urban patrol. It offers you enough reach to engage enemy combatants at all urban distances and when trained properly like your Cousins Grand Son is being trained can be handled quickly and decisively in room to room combat…
The Marines did house to house clearing in Fallujah using their 20” bbl M-16A4’s and decimated the belligerents there! And that’s a much larger weapon than the M4 is!
Now the Navy’s MK18 and the Army’s CQB are definitely better options for this type of work but those are specialized for SF only operators and not as good for non-SF missions. Airborne have completely different missions and are put in many other situations that demand a longer range firearm…

 

[NTX]

The M4 has big advantage in pinpoint accuracy in a hurry, even indoors in close quarters. I can only speak from the SWAT perspective, but most of our entry team members will be carrying a short barreled M4 in any given scenario. I have only cleared a building in a CQB scenario one time with a pistol, and it’s because I had to shoot a lock with a breaching shotgun first. There is a learning curve to rifle manipulation and teaching discipline to not poke your barrel too far around hard corners, but the M4 is still a great tool for the job.

 

[WebleyGreene455]

In terms of the US military, it's because the M4 is enough of a jack-of-all-trades to be acceptably useful in a variety of roles. It cuts down on the need for new or extra training, additional equipment, firearms, ammo, accessories. Subguns are gradually getting nudged aside in favor of shorter, more compact rifles, too. The Navy SEALs have been using the Mk 18 (an M4 with a 10.5-in barrel) for years and in assorted modifications. Other branches and militaries use similar weapons for CQB, entry, and clearing.

In terms of law enforcement, subguns are still around but with the rise of body armor, first SWAT personnel and then regular officers have been moving to AR-based patrol rifles. SWAT teams and special LEOs from local to federal levels may use rifles similar to the Mk 18 in the line of duty for the same reasons as the military.

Shotguns in the military haven't really been combat weapons in a few decades. Mostly they're just used for breaching and entry and by security/MP personnel, you'll see them being used with buckshot as combat weapons but they're a lot more limited in usefulness now we don't fight in trenches and quaint French villages anymore. In LEO circles, they're still fairly popular because it's tighter quarters, it'll stop the threat, and they can be used with non/less-lethal shells.

As for sidearms, most soldiers and marines will be armed with one. It's a defensive weapon intended to be used when your primary is out of ammo, you're in tight and need to stop a threat to your life, or when your primary isn't gonna work (like if you have a big bolt action sniper rifle and you need to clear a building). It's not your number one gun like a beat cop might have on a regular day at work.

 

[gbflyer]

Thanks gents. I knew I’d get good answers here.

 

[Red Leg]

Three decades in the US Army and long since retired. My repel boarders, home defense firearm is a suppressed Daniel Defense MP4 in 5.56. It is perfect for that or any other close combat role. With a reddot, it mirrors what your son is using. I use SP's, but your son is using ball which has the advantage of penetrating body armor which a pistol caliber will not do.

 

[Josh P]

Three decades in the US Army and long since retired. My repel boarders, home defense firearm is a Daniel Defense MP4 in 5.56. It is perfect for that or any other close combat role.

Especially with anything aspiring to the terminal ballistics of the mk262 (77gr OTM) ammunition. Satisfactory terminal ballistics inside 40m out of the 10.3” mk18, and equally so out of the 18” mk12 for several hundred meters.

 

[WebleyGreene455]

Three decades in the US Army and long since retired. My repel boarders, home defense firearm is a suppressed Daniel Defense MP4 in 5.56. It is perfect for that or any other close combat role. With a reddot, it mirrors what your son is using. I use SP's, but your son is using ball which has the advantage of penetrating body armor which a pistol caliber will not do.

LAPD learned about 9mm vs body armor the hard way in 1997.

 

[mdwest]

There is a reason all of our tier 1 counter terrorism teams use variants of the AR system as opposed to pistol caliber sub guns for the majority of their work.. and a reason almost all major metro area SWAT teams moved from pistol caliber sub guns to rifle caliber carbines during the late 90’s and never went back…

While a stock M4 has some disadvantages in a CQB environment compared to say an MP5… the advantages it brings far outweigh those disadvantages..

With a conventional infantry unit each soldier is armed with 1 primary long gun.. units don’t have an inventory that allows them to equip and train the typical infantryman with multiple options… so while there might be a few scenarios here or there where a different weapon system might be preferred… if they have to pick just one to cover all bases.. which might range from urban warfare, to fighting in a jungle environment to fighting in open plains and fields to fighting in a desert to fighting in the mountains.. etc etc.. the M4 family of weapons brings the versatility they need to go anywhere and fight under most situations no matter the circumstances…

Don’t get me wrong… I love the mp5.. and have used a number of different sub guns over the years ranging from ppsh to beretta sp12 to uzis, etc etc…

But my personal home defense firearm right now is a 556 “pistol” piston AR… and the rifle sitting right next to it for my my to grab in the most extreme emergency is a 16” bbl AR carbine…

 

[CZDiesel]

I will say this, my MPX with Winchester +p+ rounds protect the house

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

My cousin’s grandson finished up basic in the Army and now he’s onto the next phase of training, forgive me I don’t know the lingo. He’s in Airborne. Anyway the Army now shows training pictures on their Facebook page. As it happens he was in one recently. They were teaching them how to clear rooms in teams and squads. So to my question: why do they use an M4 for that? Seems awkward and unruly inside a building with a real possibility of over penetration. Wouldn’t a 9mm SMG of some kind be better, or a handgun or shotgun?

Your cousins grandson is likely in AIT (Advance Individual Training). Basically his follow-on training for whatever his MOS/Job is in the military. A lot has changed since the early 2000’s and I’m not sure if all MOS’ get this training at AIT or if they get it in Basic and just combat arms MOS’ get additional training on it at AIT.

To answer your question the average soldier is not carrying multiple weapons on a mission. They don’t typically do one type of mission so he needs to have a weapon that’s effective in a CQB engagement or if he takes fire from 500 meters away crossing open terrain to get to the village he’s about to clear. For this reason everything is based around their service rifle (M4). Additionally over penetration isn’t really a concern for the average soldier inside a house. They’re not law enforcement, meaning collateral damage is unfortunately part of war.

SOF members will sometimes choose different weapons for specific missions and their role on it. If the vast majority of their time is be spent doing a very specific task like CQB then MK18/CQBR’s were a common choice. SCARs and SMG’s have made some appearances. If they were an overwatch element they might take something with a little more reach, or something with a little higher rate of fire. It really depends on their role and the mission.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Be careful with getting a false sense of security and believing that a 9mm FMJ or self defense bullet will not penetrate through 3 walls of normal US home construction materials.

 

[Hillcountry63]

All good responses, in his AIT (Army) or ITS (USMC) they are issued a standard weapon platform for the training. If he goes to a specialized unit, weapon platforms are trained with and issued based on the mission of said unit. When I was active duty USMC, the M16A1 was standard with the M16A2 coming in service after a few years but we also trained/used other platforms. In my LEO career I’ve seen everything you can think of issued and used due to budgets and administrators who didn’t have a clue. I’m still an active SWAT Commander and I issue my Team Daniel Defense MK18’s 10 1/2” in 5.56/233. The remainder of the department is issued either DDM4V11’s or Springfield Saints. We still use Shotgun’s (Remington 870/Benelli M4 14”) for specific applications such as less lethal, CQB, breaching, etc. Rifle caliber consistently defeats barriers and standard body armor with proper bullet selection. That being said, you can go down rabbit holes about the advantages/disadvantages of platforms, ammo/bullet selection, rifle vs pistol caliber carbines, etc. Bottom line is the M4 platform, or one of it’s variants, in 5.56 is a jack of all trades and can usually complete the mission.

 

[WebleyGreene455]

In my LEO career I’ve seen everything you can think of issued and used due to budgets and administrators who didn’t have a clue.

I'm only recently LE but I'd certainly want to make a few changes if I was given the ability to do so re: some of our stuff...

But I don't, and can't, carry a firearm at work. Did get certed for taser last week, though. Too bad we don't get to have those on us...

Maybe one day after I've gone through the Academy I'll try for SWAT. I'm after K9, enforcement, something like that for now. Either way, though, I do question some of these decisions I see being/having been made and wonder how I could do better.

 

[Lone Star Bluegrass]

My cousin’s grandson finished up basic in the Army and now he’s onto the next phase of training, forgive me I don’t know the lingo. He’s in Airborne. Anyway the Army now shows training pictures on their Facebook page. As it happens he was in one recently. They were teaching them how to clear rooms in teams and squads. So to my question: why do they use an M4 for that? Seems awkward and unruly inside a building with a real possibility of over penetration. Wouldn’t a 9mm SMG of some kind be better, or a handgun or shotgun?

The short answers to your question are yes, an SMG would probably “be better” for that application, but the Army decided long ago that they’d rather have one rifle that does most everything barely adequately than several platforms that have specific applications. That’s a sweeping statement with some exceptions but it is still true.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

It’s pretty compact, decent terminal effect,
Good magazine capacity, accurate. Makes sense for law enforcement, hostage rescue, if you want to take prisoners, avoid collateral casualties, and/or you think there is something in the room that you want intact for intelligence purposes. But for simply clearing the room? “Not my room, not my problem” comes to mind: grenade, AT4, armored vehicle, artillery, or an air strike would be higher on my list than any firearm.

 

[Hillcountry63]

I'm only recently LE but I'd certainly want to make a few changes if I was given the ability to do so re: some of our stuff...

But I don't, and can't, carry a firearm at work. Did get certed for taser last week, though. Too bad we don't get to have those on us...

Maybe one day after I've gone through the Academy I'll try for SWAT. I'm after K9, enforcement, something like that for now. Either way, though, I do question some of these decisions I see being/having been made and wonder how I could do better.

Congratulations on joining an honorable, yet underappreciated profession. Take your time and soak it in. In every situation you'll learn something......good or bad, but you'll learn something. Stay safe and watch your SIX.

 

[WebleyGreene455]

Congratulations on joining an honorable, yet underappreciated profession. Take your time and soak it in. In every situation you'll learn something......good or bad, but you'll learn something. Stay safe and watch your SIX.

Being a corrections officer with the goal of certified deputy isn't where I thought I might be but I'm doing just that. Always learning.