Question: Scoping a Heavy Caliber Double Rifle

[frog stealer]

Question for those with experience...does it make sense to scope a .450/400 double rifle? I've heard of a few members here that have scoped .375 or lesser cartridges, but I'm curious about something in the .40+ calibers. I assume the comb would have to be a bit higher than one for iron sights, but I would be hesitant to custom order a higher comb if it doesn't make sense for the caliber.

I recently watched a youtube video of Cal Pappas (RIP brother) using his scoped vintage 450/400 taking a caribou. For me, I would get much more gratification using a double on these types of hunts than a scoped repeater.

 

[Red Leg]

My 500/416 barrels are scoped on my Blaser S2. I use a Swarovski Z6i and it works perfectly. This caliber essentially duplicates the .416 Rigby and in a S2 one can take advantage of the max point blank range of the cartridge. The Blaser S2 uses the same detachable mounts as a R8. I do not have a 450/400.

Most 450's I have seen were intended for a nostalgia hunt replicating the golden age of safari - in other words, iron sights inside 100 yards (preferably 70) of the intended target. For the 450, a reflex or red dot sight is likely a better option.

 

[frog stealer]

My 500/416 barrels are scoped on my Blaser S2. I use a Swarovski Z6i and it works perfectly. This caliber essentially duplicates the .416 Rigby and in a S2 one can take advantage of the max point blank range of the cartridge. The Blaser S2 uses the same detachable mounts as a R8. I do not have a 450/400.

Most 450's I have seen were intended for a nostalgia hunt replicating the golden age of safari - in other words, iron sights inside 100 yards (preferably 70) of the intended target. For the 450, a reflex or red dot sight is likely a better option.

As usual, thanks for your response Mr. Red Leg. Was your S2 stocked for a scope, or iron sights? In Cal's video, he used a strap-on cheek rest to raise his head to align better with the scope. I wouldn't want to rely on a removable pad for eye alignment...

 

[Red Leg]

As usual, thanks for your response Mr. Red Leg. Was your S2 stocked for a scope, or iron sights? In Cal's video, he used a strap-on cheek rest to raise his head to align better with the scope. I wouldn't want to rely on a removable pad for eye alignment...

A S2 is stocked similarly to a R8. The drop is a compromise between the excellent open sights and the scope. I find that I can acquire both quite easily. I have scoped other doubles that were built purely with open sights in mind. They too will work with a scope. Depending upon the drop, a more erect head and cheek weld will be required.

Blaser S2

WWI era 9.3x74R with claw mounts.

 

[frog stealer]

A S2 is stocked similarly to a R8. The drop is a compromise between the excellent open sights and the scope. I find that I can acquire both quite easily. I have scoped other doubles that were built purely with open sights in mind. They too will work with a scope. Depending upon the drop, a more erect head and cheek weld will be required.

Blaser S2

WWI era 9.3x74R with claw mounts.

Interesting...it sounds like the drop in the comb wasn't such a big deal for you. I have a BRNO combination gun with a high scope mount (I have to lift my head to look through the scope), but because it's chambered for the 5.6x50R, it is a non-issue. Shooting a .450/400, I would assume having to lift my head off the stock (even if a small amount) may slap me in the face!

 

[Red Leg]

It is not an issue with the 9.3x74R - but of course the recoil impulse is a lot less than a .450. The Blaser is designed with both scope and open sights in mind like a modern bolt action express rifle.

 

[Commish]

I have a scope on my heym 88-b 450/400. It is truly a pleasure to shoot. I have not had any issues with slaps or bad welds due to the scope. Of course your head is slightly higher than if you were looking down the iron sights. But due to the ‘push’ of a 450/400 combined with the weight of a double plus the added weight of a scope, I haven’t had to worry about those issues in my experience. I experience those more with my Blaser 375 or bolt 404 just due to the combination of the snappiness of the rounds and the lighter rifles even though both of those were more closely designed with a scope in mind and are supposedly gentler on the recoil scale.

Once you started moving up into the true 450 casings and beyond, I could see the lack of a solid cheek weld beginning to be an issue while using a scope.

 

[Jfet]

I wouldn't want to rely on a removable pad for eye alignment...

I have added a Trijicon Red Dot to my VC 470. Like many of us, my eyes do not find the iron sights very well any more. This rifle requires a very tight cheek weld from me. I have added a removable pad to achieve this cheek weld and maintain eye alignment with the red dot. There are some concerns with using this pad. How secure is the pad? Does it stay in place? On my synthetic stocked rifles I have been known to gorilla tape it down. Not doing that with a nice wood stock.

I have not used the red dot or the cheek pad in a hunting situation, yet. I have used them together at the range and have been pleased with the performance of each item. I believe your body type will determine which method you will use.

The first shot is the most important shot. Do what you need to do in order to be on target. Have fun figuring out the kit you need.

 

[Opposite Pole]

I have a Krieghoff double with custom stock made specifically for open sights use. I added a 1-4 scope to the 9.3x74R barrel set. I have to adjust my cheek weld for it, it's not an issue on the 9.3, but I wouldn't like it on the 470 set. Not that the 470 needs a scope. If/when? my sight worsens I'll use it with a red dot, but not a scope. For the 450/400 I don't really see a need for a scope either, if irons are an issue, a red dot would probably be a more rational choice.

 

[frog stealer]

I have a scope on my heym 88-b 450/400. It is truly a pleasure to shoot. I have not had any issues with slaps or bad welds due to the scope. Of course your head is slightly higher than if you were looking down the iron sights. But due to the ‘push’ of a 450/400 combined with the weight of a double plus the added weight of a scope, I haven’t had to worry about those issues in my experience. I experience those more with my Blaser 375 or bolt 404 just due to the combination of the snappiness of the rounds and the lighter rifles even though both of those were more closely designed with a scope in mind and are supposedly gentler on the recoil scale.

Once you started moving up into the true 450 casings and beyond, I could see the lack of a solid cheek weld beginning to be an issue while using a scope.

That’s good to know…it is a Heym 89b that I am considering. Was yours ordered with stock dimensions specific for scope use?

 

[frog stealer]

I have a Krieghoff double with custom stock made specifically for open sights use. I added a 1-4 scope to the 9.3x74R barrel set. I have to adjust my cheek weld for it, it's not an issue on the 9.3, but I wouldn't like it on the 470 set. Not that the 470 needs a scope. If/when? my sight worsens I'll use it with a red dot, but not a scope. For the 450/400 I don't really see a need for a scope either, if irons are an issue, a red dot would probably be a more rational choice.

Thanks for your input, those Krieghoff doubles look nice. What is your reasoning for the 450/400 not needing a scope? Is it the shorter range capability of the cartridge?

 

[Opposite Pole]

Thanks for your input, those Krieghoff doubles look nice. What is your reasoning for the 450/400 not needing a scope? Is it the shorter range capability of the cartridge?

The relatively short range and size of typical quarry and its vitals for which such cartridges are mostly used.

But that’s my opinion and preference only. Other people might shoot their rifles differently and have different preferences. I should note my 470 barrel set is dedicated to large DG only, for smaller animals I have a set of 9.3 barrels that I’ve ended up putting a scope on. It wasn’t originally planned but I enjoyed the rifle so much I wanted to use it for night time boar hunting for which a scope is a legal (and practical) requirement over here.

 

[Rare Breed]

My 500/416 barrels are scoped on my Blaser S2. I use a Swarovski Z6i and it works perfectly. This caliber essentially duplicates the .416 Rigby and in a S2 one can take advantage of the max point blank range of the cartridge. The Blaser S2 uses the same detachable mounts as a R8. I do not have a 450/400.

Most 450's I have seen were intended for a nostalgia hunt replicating the golden age of safari - in other words, iron sights inside 100 yards (preferably 70) of the intended target. For the 450, a reflex or red dot sight is likely a better option.

Agree…for my Chapuis 450-400 DR I used a Trijicon red dot that worked to perfection yet was unobtrusive to the nostalgia of the gun at least in my eyes

 

[SFRanger7GP]

I had my Verney-Carron set up with a Kahle k1-6i and a Trijicon red dot sight. I actually preferred the Trijicon set up for speed, balance and over all handling. I have a Leupold 1-4 VXR on my Merkel 9.3x74 and love it. I have a Trijicon set up for it but haven't had a chance to try it on game yet.

Safe shooting

 

[Opposite Pole]

One thing to keep in mind is that scoping a double is more than likely gonna affect the regulation. Scope adds weight which slows down and lessens recoil. In my case changing powders and adding roughly 100fps shortened barrel time enough to get rid of the problem and the rifle now regulates both with and without the scope. But - the scope is a relatively lightweight Leica Visus 1-4x24 and the rifle is quite heavy as it was built for 470NE so the difference and the issue weren't that significant. It might be a different story with other rifles/scopes combos.

 

[uplander01]

My personal take on it, 450-400 is the largest caliber I would ever potentially install optics. Most doubles in general aren't set up right with stock dimensions, they are meant to be express sight rifles. To each his own,...but to all, please don't molest any vintage doubles with modern optics LOL.

 

[Commish]

That’s good to know…it is a Heym 89b that I am considering. Was yours ordered with stock dimensions specific for scope use?

Not specifically but of course they knew it was going to have the option to have a scope mounted due to building it with claw mounts and Heym shot it both with iron sights as well as mounted the Swarovski 6i that’s on there. If you have a chance to speak with Chris Sells at Heym USA, he can most certainly guide you in both caliber and optics options. He is a big fan of the 450/400, and I think a major reason that a lot of American Heym buyers go with that caliber. He can also guide you on what you’re looking to use the rifle for and whether a scope would be good for your uses.
My rifle has claw mounts to easily attach a scope and take it off quickly. I also have a trijicon red dot that quickly attaches.
I have seen no issue with regulation using the scope vs without, and I have shot targets out to several hundred yards with the scope. I have taken plains game at about 175 yards and DG at about 120 yards. Neither of those shots would I have been comfortable taking with just my red dot or iron sights.
I have also used the gun to at night and would not have been able to make the shots without a scope.
You can easily have the nostalgic look by taking off the scope and sticking it in your bag or the red dot for that matter. You may decide you only want to shoot iron sights. But it is much easier to have all these options done at the factory than order it one way only to realize you need more optics help later on.

 

[frog stealer]

Not specifically but of course they knew it was going to have the option to have a scope mounted due to building it with claw mounts and Heym shot it both with iron sights as well as mounted the Swarovski 6i that’s on there. If you have a chance to speak with Chris Sells at Heym USA, he can most certainly guide you in both caliber and optics options. He is a big fan of the 450/400, and I think a major reason that a lot of American Heym buyers go with that caliber. He can also guide you on what you’re looking to use the rifle for and whether a scope would be good for your uses.
My rifle has claw mounts to easily attach a scope and take it off quickly. I also have a trijicon red dot that quickly attaches.
I have seen no issue with regulation using the scope vs without, and I have shot targets out to several hundred yards with the scope. I have taken plains game at about 175 yards and DG at about 120 yards. Neither of those shots would I have been comfortable taking with just my red dot or iron sights.
I have also used the gun to at night and would not have been able to make the shots without a scope.
You can easily have the nostalgic look by taking off the scope and sticking it in your bag or the red dot for that matter. You may decide you only want to shoot iron sights. But it is much easier to have all these options done at the factory than order it one way only to realize you need more optics help later on.

Thanks for your input…I’ve talked to Chris a few times in the past…ordering two rifles from him, an 89b and a 26b. I’ll give Chris a call when I’m ready to place an order, to see what he recommends. Another option I was considering was a scoped .375 in the smaller frame. I keep going back and forth between those two calibers.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Question for those with experience...does it make sense to scope a .450/400 double rifle? I've heard of a few members here that have scoped .375 or lesser cartridges, but I'm curious about something in the .40+ calibers. I assume the comb would have to be a bit higher than one for iron sights, but I would be hesitant to custom order a higher comb if it doesn't make sense for the caliber.

I recently watched a youtube video of Cal Pappas (RIP brother) using his scoped vintage 450/400 taking a caribou. For me, I would get much more gratification using a double on these types of hunts than a scoped repeater.

Due to the cost I have never owned a double rifle although I love them. I would have a hard time scoping one as it just doesn't look right to me. There is, however, more to hunting dangerous game than the romance and nostalgia of using an open sighted double.

My Mauser action .458 Win Mag wears a 1.5-5 Leopold in a quick detachable mount. From a previous safari I know that a cape buffalo can take a lot of killing. When my chance came to take an old dugga boy in August I was not sure exactly which way he was facing. He was standing between two big double of acacia and under a big tree. The dappled light and shade made it hard to see detail even though he was only about 70 yards out. As always, I had the scope on the lowest setting, but a quick twist on the power ring brought the bull into sharp focus and I could place the bullet precisely through the shoulder and heart. He ran about 25 yards and piled up dead. I know that I shoot better with a scope than without one.

Years ago I was using the same rifle when I shot my first buffalo, but didn't realize how high up the heart was in the chest. I did hit the heart on that one also but it was low and didn't wreak the pump. After several more shots and a tracking job the bull got up and started to close on my PH. His rifle quit working and I broke the bulls neck. I was about 10 yards to the side but my PH was only about 10 feet to the front. I was at least right about where the spine was and the scope provided a clear picture to place the shot. It had never even occurred to me to remove the scope which I can do almost instantly.

Dangerous game is just that, dangerous. So the question is: do you shoot better with a scope or with open sights?

 

[frog stealer]

My Mauser action .458 Win Mag wears a 1.5-5 Leopold in a quick detachable mount. From a previous safari I know that a cape buffalo can take a lot of killing. When my chance came to take an old dugga boy in August I was not sure exactly which way he was facing. He was standing between two big double of acacia and under a big tree. The dappled light and shade made it hard to see detail even though he was only about 70 yards out. As always, I had the scope on the lowest setting, but a quick twist on the power ring brought the bull into sharp focus and I could place the bullet precisely through the shoulder and heart. He ran about 25 yards and piled up dead. I know that I shoot better with a scope than without one.

Years ago I was using the same rifle when I shot my first buffalo, but didn't realize how high up the heart was in the chest. I did hit the heart on that one also but it was low and didn't wreak the pump. After several more shots and a tracking job the bull got up and started to close on my PH. His rifle quit working and I broke the bulls neck. I was about 10 yards to the side but my PH was only about 10 feet to the front. I was at least right about where the spine was and the scope provided a clear picture to place the shot. It had never even occurred to me to remove the scope which I can do almost instantly.

Dangerous game is just that, dangerous. So the question is: do you shoot better with a scope or with open sights?

Interesting story…I’m glad your .458 worked flawlessly and you were able to protect your PH! Within 50 yards, I am just as confident with irons as with a scope. However, past 50 yards, or in low light conditions I would take a scope every time.