Reloading for accuracy

[CBH Australia]

I’ve been reloading for years, I know the basics. I don’t want o be weighing cases and turning necks, not yet at least.

I try use quality pills and get decent groups for the rifle , mostly hunting rifles standard weight factory barrels etc. under 1moa is a start.

Of late I’ve been reading more and there are differing opinions but that’s aside anyone have any tips?

I bought a Lee collet die, a micrometer seater out of interest. I have a .308 that I want to use for practice and cheap shooting to burn up a heaps of Zmax168 gun projectiles on hand.

What has me curios is measuring concentricity. I’ve seen the guages and heard that the Forster Co-Ax Press loads rounds with better concentricity as the dies can float laterally.

What do you do if you found the ammo is not concentric? Can you straighten it?

I’m. Not going down that line but I will be building a rifle and trying to get the best I can from it. I Want a hunting rifle that is a tack driver .

Any tips for loading good hunting ammo?

I would like to hear from
@bruce moulds and @Bob Nelson 35Whelen and others

 

[Still alive]

My two cents? I have a Hollywood senior press made in 1956. Best precision press in its day as well as today. I buy great brass, great bullets and measure my powder exactly the same for each round. I measure coal length. I shoot within 1/2 moa to 100 yards on rifles i‘ve built. I have the other tools, concentricity’s and case neck gauge, but they are really for precision shooting And piece of mind. I’ve done it both ways. Same results.

I do use a OAL gauge to measure for bullet COAL with a little room for jump.

I also take her out to the range and find the sweet spot for each bullet weight and chrono it, until I get a nod I can track in excel.

as for concentricity gauge, it has a built in tool/clamp to make it straight.

I hope this helps

 

[bruce moulds]

chris,
you can get 1 moa from a properly chambered quality barrel, action bedded correctly, without too much trouble.
even for a dingo gun, 1 moa is adequate, as shooting conditions are mostly the limiting factor.
however, you can likely get tighter groups.
most of the bullets from sierra, speer, nosler, and hornady, can go down to 3/4 moa with the right load.
part of getting a good load is using the optimum sized and shaped aiming mark for your scope reticle at that range when you test.
techniques such as not steering the rifle also help when test firing.
my own experience is that a properly put together rifle with the best quality barrel is a good place to start.
krieger, bartlein, brux, shilen, are good places to start with barrels.
while some here do not believe in running in barrels, good quality ones will give their best for longer strings, and be more consistent if you do it properly.
as far as ammo goes, there are 2 factors that have the most importance on accuracy, being charge weight and relation of bullet to the rifling.
in say a 280 ackley charge weights increasing in 0.3 gn increments until you find a red line max by stiff bolt lift will give you some hint as to accuracy potential if you do 3 shot groups as you go, plus a place not to go.
these groups will often show nodal activity, so if you get a good group at the bottom of a sine wave at 100 yds there is probably a good load there.
after around 200 shots, many barrels will sow a slight jump in velocity and pressure.
if you find a good load before 200 shots, chronograph it, and after the increase back off the load to the original velocity and accuracy will probably return.
with regards runout, i have shot loads with 0.008" runout in my fclass rifle with not bad accuracy.
of course zero is the goal, but 0.002 is actually just as good.
neckturning cases and weighing them is not necessary for even a varmint rifle, let alone a hunting rifle.
sometimes primers can make a slight difference but not always.
of course other things are more important in hunting ammo than sheer accuracy.
no 1 is as always safety.
no 2 is function and reliability.
this can include feeding from the magazine, working the bolt freely, and such things as not leaving a projectile stuck in the lands when you unload. also must fit in the magazine.
so jamming bullets into the rifling for accuracy is to be avoided, meaning doing jump tests for accuracy within the parameters of your mag dimensions.
only test 1 thing at a time, so you have to do either a jump test, or a powder charge test on its own, then test the best of that with the other.
the best way to minimize runout is to have a straight sizing die.
if sized cases have runout, loaded rounds will have that much or more.
micrometer dies are no more accurate than non micrometer.
it is just easier to adjust the ammount of neck sized, or seating depth.
an rcbs rockchucker or redding boss will load quite adequate ammo.
one thing that can help accuracy is adjusting neck tension, using a bushing die.
for hunting, 0.003 should be considered a min for reliability, and will usually give good accuracy as well. a full length bushing die will allow all ammo to feed plus allow a choice of tensions.
particularly when jumping bullets, consistent neck tension is important for a consistant release.
if you start straightening rounds, the first thing you do is alter neck tension, reducing accuracy more than a little runout does.
with accuracy, pick the apples at the bottom of the tree first for the most gains.
throwing money at "stuff" might or might not give such miniscule gains a 1/2 of 1/10 of 1 moa or less, so much so that you might not even be able to pick up on the improvement.
for hunting rifles we want to use the slowest burning powder that will give the fastes velocity.
this might not give the best accuracy compared to a faster burning but loer muzzle velocity at safe pressure powder.
in the 280 ai, in oz, probably ar2213sc might be a good bet for velocity at safe pressure.
ar2209 might give slightly tighter groups, but less safe max speed.
here you have to start making choices. the difference in a good rifle won't be much in grouping, but the trajectory difference might be a gain?
bruce.

 

[CBH Australia]

I did buy the OAL gauge and fittings recently. I read that Tikka like to jump to the lands, I read all sorts of things too.

The Tikka mag will limit the cartridge OAL, one downside of a Tikka

The concentricity gauge had me curious, although I don’t want one.

I’m hoping this rifle Will be accurate within reason. achieving a half Moa would be nice. It’s as much about learning and improving my skill as anything.

Being a custom build I just hope it does a bit better than an out of the box Tikka or Howa or there is no gain for the extra cost .

Proving it’s accuracy on the bench just builds confidence .

Being accurate might reduce a little human error or other factors in field conditions

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I’ve been reloading for years, I know the basics. I don’t want o be weighing cases and turning necks, not yet at least.

I try use quality pills and get decent groups for the rifle , mostly hunting rifles standard weight factory barrels etc. under 1moa is a start.

Of late I’ve been reading more and there are differing opinions but that’s aside anyone have any tips?

I bought a Lee collet die, a micrometer seater out of interest. I have a .308 that I want to use for practice and cheap shooting to burn up a heaps of Zmax168 gun projectiles on hand.

What has me curios is measuring concentricity. I’ve seen the guages and heard that the Forster Co-Ax Press loads rounds with better concentricity as the dies can float laterally.

What do you do if you found the ammo is not concentric? Can you straighten it?

I’m. Not going down that line but I will be building a rifle and trying to get the best I can from it. I Want a hunting rifle that is a tack driver .

Any tips for loading good hunting ammo?

I would like to hear from
@bruce moulds and @Bob Nelson 35Whelen and others

@CBH
Chris from memory forster coaxial presses and dies are what the benchrest boys use. They are inline presses that neck size ONLY and can be had with interchangeable bushings for neck tension.
The Lee collet die is the poor man's version that only sizes the neck around a mandrel using 3 jaws . The jaws size the neck to the size of the mandrel and has nothing to stretch the neck on the way out.
The only way to alter the tension is by machining the mandrel down .001on a lathe.
I use the collet die on the son's 308 and my 25. It does seem to create more accurate ammo.. Lee dies also have a floating bullet seater that allows the projectiles to self centre in the case unlike the fixed readers in other dies. I find these two combined appear to give excellent results without the need of more expensive gear..
I use the old bullet in the case method for COAL.
BOB

 

[CBH Australia]

 

[bruce moulds]

for the best accuracy your barrel will produce, you will have to come to terms with a cleaning regime.
some barrels will not shoot their best unless a little fouled, then come to max accuracy for a number of shots, then start going off again.
only shooting will tell what that barrel really likes best.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

chris,
you can get 1 moa from a properly chambered quality barrel, action bedded correctly, without too much trouble.
even for a dingo gun, 1 moa is adequate, as shooting conditions are mostly the limiting factor.
however, you can likely get tighter groups.
most of the bullets from sierra, speer, nosler, and hornady, can go down to 3/4 moa with the right load.
part of getting a good load is using the optimum sized and shaped aiming mark for your scope reticle at that range when you test.
techniques such as not steering the rifle also help when test firing.
my own experience is that a properly put together rifle with the best quality barrel is a good place to start.
krieger, bartlein, brux, shilen, are good places to start with barrels.
while some here do not believe in running in barrels, good quality ones will give their best for longer strings, and be more consistent if you do it properly.
as far as ammo goes, there are 2 factors that have the most importance on accuracy, being charge weight and relation of bullet to the rifling.
in say a 280 ackley charge weights increasing in 0.3 gn increments until you find a red line max by stiff bolt lift will give you some hint as to accuracy potential if you do 3 shot groups as you go, plus a place not to go.
these groups will often show nodal activity, so if you get a good group at the bottom of a sine wave at 100 yds there is probably a good load there.
after around 200 shots, many barrels will sow a slight jump in velocity and pressure.
if you find a good load before 200 shots, chronograph it, and after the increase back off the load to the original velocity and accuracy will probably return.
with regards runout, i have shot loads with 0.008" runout in my fclass rifle with not bad accuracy.
of course zero is the goal, but 0.002 is actually just as good.
neckturning cases and weighing them is not necessary for even a varmint rifle, let alone a hunting rifle.
sometimes primers can make a slight difference but not always.
of course other things are more important in hunting ammo than sheer accuracy.
no 1 is as always safety.
no 2 is function and reliability.
this can include feeding from the magazine, working the bolt freely, and such things as not leaving a projectile stuck in the lands when you unload. also must fit in the magazine.
so jamming bullets into the rifling for accuracy is to be avoided, meaning doing jump tests for accuracy within the parameters of your mag dimensions.
only test 1 thing at a time, so you have to do either a jump test, or a powder charge test on its own, then test the best of that with the other.
the best way to minimize runout is to have a straight sizing die.
if sized cases have runout, loaded rounds will have that much or more.
micrometer dies are no more accurate than non micrometer.
it is just easier to adjust the ammount of neck sized, or seating depth.
an rcbs rockchucker or redding boss will load quite adequate ammo.
one thing that can help accuracy is adjusting neck tension, using a bushing die.
for hunting, 0.003 should be considered a min for reliability, and will usually give good accuracy as well. a full length bushing die will allow all ammo to feed plus allow a choice of tensions.
particularly when jumping bullets, consistent neck tension is important for a consistant release.
if you start straightening rounds, the first thing you do is alter neck tension, reducing accuracy more than a little runout does.
with accuracy, pick the apples at the bottom of the tree first for the most gains.
throwing money at "stuff" might or might not give such miniscule gains a 1/2 of 1/10 of 1 moa or less, so much so that you might not even be able to pick up on the improvement.
for hunting rifles we want to use the slowest burning powder that will give the fastes velocity.
this might not give the best accuracy compared to a faster burning but loer muzzle velocity at safe pressure powder.
in the 280 ai, in oz, probably ar2213sc might be a good bet for velocity at safe pressure.
ar2209 might give slightly tighter groups, but less safe max speed.
here you have to start making choices. the difference in a good rifle won't be much in grouping, but the trajectory difference might be a gain?
bruce.

@bruce moulds
The barrels you mention are good BUT Australia makes barrels every bit as good. Tobler in NSW and TSE Engeneering in QLD both ale excellent match grade barrels. My 35 has a TSE barrel and it doesn't matter what I throw down the bore it will group .75 inches all day. My son's No4 SMLE 25 with a the chrome moly barrel groups down to .5 inch.
A TSE stainless barrel will set you back about 550 dollars. I had my 35 barrel chambered as well for extra and had my Smith fit it. The will also profile the barrel to the size you need as well from ultra light sporter up to 1 inch diameter or more. As you want the rifle to be used daily I personally would opt for a medium sporter from tse.
I you want a good gunsmith to do the job I highly recommend mine but be patient it could take up to 18 months but the results will be worth it. He built my 22K Hornet lowall and it will put down 5 shots at 100 yards that can be covered with the base of the hornet case ,3 shots can be covered by the neck of the case. The limiting factor in the accuracy of my rifle is ME.
BOB

 

[CBH Australia]

Nosler cases ordered.

I have a Hornady press with the collets. I just screws the dies in. The collets don't impress me much.

What I do find is the die/collet raise a few thou when I apply pressure. There is a point where they stop but I wonder if this vertical movement is detrimental to accuracy or consistency at least.

Bob, the Forster press accepts standard dies of any type FLS etc. They clip in to a slot in the frame for quick change. They use a spring loaded jaw to grab case base. No shell holder required.

What I don't have are the bushing type die Bruce mentioned. I wasn't sure if they are used in conjunction with neck turning or would they work ok without turning the neck. Then it's there are several bushings available in a calibre.

I don't have a chronograph . IIdiot run ballistics software or use a rangefinder. Bit I'm leaving all the time and i might consider a chronograph later.

 

[CBH Australia]

Stupid surprise wrote Idiot where it should say I Don't.

 

[fourfive8]

I think Bruce covered everything pretty well. Perfect ammo/accuracy is only a goal, and will never be achieved. Some shooters become obsessed by it. It can turn into an endless chase, eating lots of money. The trick is to maximize returns from the limited resources, energy and time most of us have.

Of all the hassles in producing near perfect ammo, case run out is one of those real buggers in the accuracy business. You can find near perfect bullets perfectly matched to best powder, you can cut near perfect chambers in near perfect bores with near perfect groove and land geometry with perfect twist for a specific bullet at a specific velocity, you can provide near perfect action alignments and bedding.... but if a case has run out, you may be sunk before starting. It likely begins when the case is manufactured. Loaders spend a lot of time trying to correct something that from the get go cannot be corrected. Sizing and seating techniques may minimize it or prevent it form getting worse but it's nye on impossible to correct. Neck turning can address consistency of neck wall thickness but if the neck is offset from case body and shoulder because of differential hardness in the case body or uneven thickness around the circumference... forget it. Sometimes you can get lucky and start with near perfect brass. Then it's just a matter of using sizing, turning, seating techniques that maintain that concentricity.

The Lee neck collet die comes as close as any to maintaining concentricity- minimal neck runout. But at some point the case body/shoulder may need a little sizing to fit. A bullet seating die that has a sliding sleeve (alignment bushing) can also help maintain alignment.

 

[fourfive8]

Using a neck runout gauge will help show if and where runout happens during the reloading process... but it won't correct it

If your case shows zero neck runout, as it should after firing, check for runout a couple more times during the reloading process to see if there is a problem and if so which stage might be exaggerating the problem. Then maybe modify that part of the process. After firing, the neck should show zero runout. After resizing, the standard "acceptable" runout is about .002" or less. The same after bullet seating. If something like .005" or more shows up after any one step you'll know where to start looking. Unfortunately, even if after using a neck sizer like the Lee collet die and gauging at near zero runout, if the brass is basically out of whack to begin with, the off-axis gremlin may very well appear again during bullet seating...

Here's a pic of a 375 HH set in a common neck runout tool- this one is a Sinclair. When I was in the accuracy game, I used it all the time- now just occasionally to monitor how well or how poorly my process is working or the basic quality of components. Precision and benchrest shooters always check for runout during the steps in their loading process with this type tool.

 

[CBH Australia]

@fourfive8 I agree on 2 counts

One, there is a point of chasing a diminishing return.

Two @bruce moulds Covered it quite well, I have him on speed dial if stuff it up.

To put it into perspective I’ve never got into serious target shooting, Rarely attending the club except to sign in or shoot a fun match.

I’m a shooter looking to increase my skills and getting close to building my first semi custom I guess you could say. It’s also my first Wildcat, not really a wildcat as I’m planning on the .280ai . The legitimised SAAMI version.

I can buy moderately priced dies, I can buy brass so no fire forming, I can convert a Tikka.

I might just hoping to load accurate ammo at a reasonable price and hoping to discuss techniques, tools and options or pick up a hint.

I don’t wan to spend on a build and get average performance. I’d like to say this is my new whiz bang and get say 1/2moa or something just so I can see it’s ben a worthwhile excerise.

 

[C.W. Richter]

You are trimming your cases to the same length? (It keeps the neck tension fairly similar, which keeps pressure similar, and accuracy greater.) COAL (bullet seating depth) variation often has the greatest impact on accuracy in any particular gun. Experiment with it! Bolt gun? Neck-size only. Don't full-length re-size (you'll gain accuracy.) I've found that IMR powders and CCI primers give the greatest accuracy in nearly all guns owned. Not always the fastest, but most consistent. (A couple guns love the RL powders better-which generally give greater velocity too, and hot .22s prefer AA powder.) Use of magnum primers in non-magnum calibers sometimes result in accuracy/velocity gains. 'Only have 1 set of Lee dies (I prefer Redding or RCBS and do have some Hornady that required parts replacement over time,) but what I changed straight away is that they did Not have locking rings on them-allowing for variation everytime they were set up. 'Fixed it by installing RCBS locking rings on all Lee dies!! I find that washing and polishing brass has very little effect on accuracy, particularly on hunting rigs (some steps can be eliminated to reduce the time burden if not competition shooting.) Handloading will always result in greater than factory ammo accuracy, if done properly, and for much less $ per round...Join a reloading forum and study other people's hard work (as not to waste your time trying to re-invent the wheel. Don't trust data posted by anyone that has a velocity that ends in 000. Only use chronographed data.) Examples of handloading the spectrum of heavy-hitting hunting guns below (.416, .338. 7mm.) I left out the 5-shot, 1-hole .30/.264/.257/.22 cal rigs. I think it's touched upon above, but not all targets present the most precise aiming points for consistency/repetition. Get an adjustable trigger (bedding the action a+) and the best scope you can. Good Luck!

 

[Still alive]

The best thing you can do to save money and time while building, reloading, shooting and hunting is buy buy a chronograph. I bought the doppler one, went in half with a buddy, thank god I did because we could never get it to work ever. Bought the magneto setup. Best thing I’ve ever done.

I don’t ever worry about the recipe the book says it should be? Only max powder data!! I look for that sweet spot when I can see three or four bullets hit a nod.

Every gun is different, every barrels is different but with this one step I think you can get down to what ever MOA you want to.

I do keep a note pad for each round fired with each recipe being recorded. I have lead bullets data and non lead data?

It does really suck to be a hunter in California!!!!!!! Our elk are smaller but taste awesome.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Likely because the bullets are unleaded!

 

[fourfive8]

I'll second the idea about the chronograph being key to developing loads. Doesn't have to be expensive- just consistent. Most are very good if you learn to use them correctly. Also, record two numbers from chronograph and keep in log with the basic load recipe for each load tested. Mean velocity and standard deviation of velocity. SD of vel is simply the statistical likelihood that your next shot will be within the +/- fps range as indicated by the SD number. BTW the big ballistic labs have determined that about two, 5 round tests are perfectly adequate for yielding significant data.

 

[Shootist43]

Lots of good advice in the previous posts. One piece of equipment not mentioned was the Hornady Concentricity Gage. With this piece of "kit" you can measure concentricity as well as correct rounds that are above what you want to use. Another trick is to partially seat a bullet then rotate the case 180 degrees and then fully seat it. Doing this should will halve any concentricity issues regardless of what type of press or dies you use. Check out the link if you are interested https://www.hornady.com/reloading/p...ols-and-gauges/lock-n-load-concentricity-tool

 

[Hogpatrol]

Annealing is another part of the equation.

 

[Patrik D]

Look and listen to Erik Cortina and F-Class John at youtube.

Erik Cortina - Pro Shooter

My channel focuses on precision long range shooting, reloading, reloading tools, gunsmithing, tool making, match shooting, and anything else that has to do w...

www.youtube.com

F-Class John

I'm just a highly competitive F-Class guy showing off assorted gear from a real world perspective. High Master Mid & Long Range F-Open. Most of the products ...

www.youtube.com

They realy know what they talk about.