Reloading the 450 No 2

[uthisha]

Hi, new to the forum.

I have a W.J. Jeffrey 450 No 2 with 24 inch barrels and I'm about to start reloading for it.

I've been reloading for several decades so I'm good on fundamentals, but am new to reloading large capacity double gun cartridges.

My apologies if this has been covered in prior threads, I searched and did not find them.

"Shooting the Double Rifle' and few other sources have provided load data, which is a starting point. I would like to hear directly from people that actually reload and shoot these cartridges to learn the finer points and nuances.

• Brass - I have a good supply of new Bell brass. From what I researched it's good brass. Any data to the contrary?
• Primers - Load data (that I have) specifies CCI or Fed Large Magnum primers. Seems that the CCI add a bit more velocity, but CCIs are known for being harder to ignite. Any specific primer recommendations? Or do they all pretty much work well?
• Powders - What is giving the most consistent results? Any overly temperature sensitive?
• Wads - some loads require them, some don't. What is your experience?
• If using Dacron/wads - this is new to me, I need coaching on to do this properly.
• Bullets - Lots of great choices here. Swifts, Woodleighs, etc, What do you use and why?

Thanks for help.

 

[IvW]

Federal 215 primer

 

[318AE]

Welcome aboard!

A few thoughts:
- 450 31/4” No 2 cases have a super thin wall compared to most any bottleneck centerfire cartridge or even the 450/400 3” (Jeffery). Be careful seating bullets. The Bell cases are as good as any IMO.
- Many reload to feed near obsolete rifles, develop a load that improves accuracy, give themselves something “else” to think about while trying to improve consistency over factory loads, and some even think they save money. Here, you will likely quickly get to trying to find a load that regulates.
- I like Woodleigh bullets, as I am confident they are safe in older doubles, perform well terminally, and likely give you a good start on regulation, as they have a weight, shape and profile similar to the originals.
- Federal 215 is great. I haven’t found I need wads - YMMV.
- Some rifles just seems to like some powders better than others, even though most all were regulated with cordite originally. Vary charge density with the common culprits until you find what works best. Getting close to the regulation velocity is very helpful.
- Take your time. Anticipate many range sessions to “stay fresh” and ensure you are shooting well as you experiment with loads.

I hope this is helpful. Again, welcome to AH!

 

[IvW]

Welcome aboard!

A few thoughts:
- 450 31/4” No 2 cases have a super thin wall compared to most any bottleneck centerfire cartridge or even the 450/400 3” (Jeffery). Be careful seating bullets. The Bell cases are as good as any IMO.
- Many reload to feed near obsolete rifles, develop a load that improves accuracy, give themselves something “else” to think about while trying to improve consistency over factory loads, and some even think they save money. Here, you will likely quickly get to trying to find a load that regulates.
- I like Woodleigh bullets, as I am confident they are safe in older doubles, perform well terminally, and likely give you a good start on regulation, as they have a weight, shape and profile similar to the originals.
- Federal 215 is great. I haven’t found I need wads - YMMV.
- Some rifles just seems to like some powders better than others, even though most all were regulated with cordite originally. Vary charge density with the common culprits until you find what works best. Getting close to the regulation velocity is very helpful.
- Take your time. Anticipate many range sessions to “stay fresh” and ensure you are shooting well as you experiment with loads.

I hope this is helpful. Again, welcome to AH!

450 NE No2 has a 3 1/2 inch case not 3 1/4 inch....

Furthermore it has a thicker rim and thicker wall cases when compared to most other NE cartridges....

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Hi, new to the forum.

I have a W.J. Jeffrey 450 No 2 with 24 inch barrels and I'm about to start reloading for it.

I've been reloading for several decades so I'm good on fundamentals, but am new to reloading large capacity double gun cartridges.

My apologies if this has been covered in prior threads, I searched and did not find them.

"Shooting the Double Rifle' and few other sources have provided load data, which is a starting point. I would like to hear directly from people that actually reload and shoot these cartridges to learn the finer points and nuances.

• Brass - I have a good supply of new Bell brass. From what I researched it's good brass. Any data to the contrary?
• Primers - Load data (that I have) specifies CCI or Fed Large Magnum primers. Seems that the CCI add a bit more velocity, but CCIs are known for being harder to ignite. Any specific primer recommendations? Or do they all pretty much work well?
• Powders - What is giving the most consistent results? Any overly temperature sensitive?
• Wads - some loads require them, some don't. What is your experience?
• If using Dacron/wads - this is new to me, I need coaching on to do this properly.
• Bullets - Lots of great choices here. Swifts, Woodleighs, etc, What do you use and why?

Thanks for help.

I've used both CCI and Federal primers. CCI for non magnum rifles only however. I can't even remember why now, I think perhaps Fed 210's weren't available at the time. They've been great, no complaints.
Fed 215's for all of the magnum calibers and my .470NE, again no complaints.

Powders - I don't have a recommendation for that caliber, but in general I like Hodgdon's newer powders for less temp sensitivity. That said, I believe the other manufacturers are also on board with that now, you'll have to check.

Wads - some like to use a faster powder such as RL15 or Varget in their doubles. This means generally speaking quite a bit less powder and thus a fair amount of empty space in the round. To fill that space and ensure proper ignition a wad is placed in after the powder is poured and of course prior to seating the bullet. I've tried this with backer rod. Easy enough to do but one more step. Just estimate the amount of empty space you have and cut to fit. My personal experience was I couldn't find a load that was as good as my H4831 load and I didn't notice that much recoil reduction which is the purpose in doing this.

Bullets - For softs, my preference is for a bonded lead bullet. North Fork bonded core or Swift A-Frame. They both are just great performers. For solids I'd be looking at the CEB's or North Forks flat meplats. Basically the design is the same at the front end but they use different materials and the CEB is a bore rider.

Hope this helps.

 

[uthisha]

Thanks, I appreciate the specific info.

The 450 No 2 has a huge case, so many (but not all) loads use 'filler' or wads.

How thick should the wad be? And do you just press it down against the power charge?
Or if using loose fill, do just fill case with Dacron fill?

Sorry if these are noob questions, but I have never reloaded metallic cartridges using wads or filler.

Thanks.

 

[ActionBob]

I have an old Thomas Bland hammer gun and was given some loading info by the seller and I will share that here. However I have not found time to actually try any of these loads.

the load that JJ developed to regulate the Bland is 100 gr. of IMR 4831 with backer rod filler and 500 gr. projectile. 98 gr. IMR 4831 and backer rod for the 350 gr. Hornady soft-nose. Personally I would get Woodleigh 480 gr. and start with 98 gr of IMR 4831. I don't like thick jacket solids or softs. Hornady .458 480 gr. softs or solids is the way I would go if you don't want Woodleighs

And another;
I had loaded 8 or 10 rounds to take out with this rifle using 90 gr. of RL15, Federal 215 magnum primers, backer rod filler and Woodleigh 480 grain softs

 

[wildcatter82]

Avid 450 #2 reloader here. I've got a modern Champlin Famars. My rifle is about 2 grains faster with any given powder listed in the Woodleigh manual. Woodleigh 480s are my go to. Fed 215 primers. IMR 4831 regulates the best for me, but the regulation velocity for that powder is sub 2000 fps. H4831SC regulates at 2060 fps and therefore is my hunting load. Filler is a must for the medium burners. 5/8" Backer rod cut to length from the top of the powder to up against the base of the neck works great. Kynoch foam plugs are super handy but expensive. I just pinch the plugs into the neck and push down with the eraser end of a pencil. The only powder I've tried that didn't require filler was H1000....regulates nicely but at 120gr knocks the snot out of me and burns right through my most used powder for other things. I just recently received some RL15 to try out....will see how it regulates.

Woodleighs are the gold standard for Nitro Express double rifles and for good reason. I am however a big fan of Northforks and how they perform on game, so I plan to develop a load for some 500gr SS that I recently purchased.

And maybe just my experience but a word of caution....traditional views of IMR 4831 vs H4831SC vs H4831 relative burn rate/powder charge/produced velocity can be turned upside down in the giant NE cases.

 

[uthisha]

Thanks. Is just any 5/8 inch backer rod from a home improvement store?
You said cut to length from top of the powder to base of the neck, so there is space between the top of the rod and base of the bullet?

Re: reloading equipment -
I've got a set of RCBS dies on the way.
What press do use? RCBS Ammomaster?
Which shell holder do I need? (Hornady lists a shell holder for 450 NE but RCBS does not)

Thanks.

 

[wildcatter82]

No space at all between the bullet and the rod, and that is very important! There must be good contact powder to rod to bullet. For 480 & 500 class bullets, the base of the bullet should be sitting below the base of the neck, as bullets have to be seated pretty deep as these rifles have little to no throat length. Measure everything for sure though, and cut the rod to the appropriate length, especially if loading up the much shorter 350s.

I have used both closed cell and open cell from the hardware store, and I personally can't tell the difference. Open cell technically has a higher temp rating, but have used closed cell many times and have found no ill effects to my barrels. There's alot of opinions on this here and other forums....this is my personal opinion based on my experiences. I now however use the Kynoch foam plugs just because they are so easy.

I use a large RCBS single press for my #2 cartridges. As for the shellholder, I will have to take a look when I go out to the shop today. I do know it's a specific holder for the 450 & 475 #2. I use one that came with a second hand set of dies, but I also bought a CH4D shellholder from Buffalo Arms.

 

[ActionBob]

I bought the RCBS Rebel larger press kit as it seemed to be a good deal starting out with a very capable single stage that can handle any of the calibers I'd want to load.

I think Lee makes a big single stage that is lower cost and very capable of loading this cartridge. I believe @Bullthrower338 has one, perhaps @tarbe also.

 

[Bullthrower338]

I bought the RCBS Rebel larger press kit as it seemed to be a good deal starting out with a very capable single stage that can handle any of the calibers I'd want to load.

I think Lee makes a big single stage that is lower cost and very capable of loading this cartridge. I believe @Bullthrower338 has one, perhaps @tarbe also.

I believe the Lee Classic Cast is capable but I bought the Lee 50 BMG to load, well, 50 BMG but you just bush it down to use 1” or 7/8” dies and there is plenty of room for anything

 

[deewayne2003]

Uthisha …. My experience is with .470NE but I can explain Dacron loading process.

.470ne load = 500gr bullet, 78gr IMR3031 powder, 2.0gr Dacron & Win LR Magnum primer.

Press: I use a Lee classic cast press - it’s big enough for even .50cal BMG & come with insert for 7/8” dies and accepts the bigger 1.25” dies like the Lee factory crimp die which you can custom order from Lee and I highly recommend you do.

Loading process…

1. Start with prepared cases that are cleaned, sized, trimmed and primed.

2. Charge cases with powder

3. Insert pre weighed ball of Dacron into case and gently tamp down to the top of powder charge. My preferred tool for this is the blunt end of a Bamboo chopstick. Your not trying to pack the Dacron, just push it down enough where the base of the bullet will touch/gently push on the Dacron.

4. Seat bullets to appropriate length.

5. I use the Lee factory crimp die.

Tips….

Dacron is nothing but pillow stuffing that looks like white cotton candy; I acquired my lifetime supply of Dacron by taking a knife to a $6 pillow.

If you want to speed up the process of loading, pre measure your Dacron and roll it up into small balls and store them in a ziplock bag.

 

[wildcatter82]

Here's a pic of the shellholder. The single press I use is the RCBS RCIV.

 

[uthisha]

Thank you all!!! This is exactly the information I needed.

The devil is in the details, and thank you for helping to sort those out!

I know

 

[uthisha]

The book "Shooting the British Double Rifles" includes load data for the 450No2.

The author stated that following loads "stood out" (in no particular order)...

• Reloader 15 @ 95 grains - with Dacron filler.
• H4381 @ 107 grains - with Dacron filler
• Reloader 25 @ 126 grains - no filler required.

All of these loads are about 2060+/- fps in 24" barrels, with Woodleigh 480gr. RN SN.

Assuming accuracy/regulation of all loads are good, I would be inclined to go with Reloader 15 (~95 grains) as I think it would have less recoil than the others. This is true with pistol rounds where faster powder over heavy bullet is less recoil, but I don't know if this still true when you up the powder charge 20x, up barrel length by 6x and up the weight of the firearm 12x.

Any experience with these powders in double cartridges? Interested in hearing about felt recoil, accuracy/consistency, and temp sensitivity.

What loads "stand out" for your doubles?

Thanks.

 

[wildcatter82]

Sorry for the late response. For my rifle:

IMR4831 @ 102 gr and foam plug. Best regulation and accuracy, but regulation velocity is 1980 fps.

H4831SC @ 103 gr and foam plug. Good regulation and accuracy.

H1000 @120 gr. Great regulation but hits a couple inches high and left and knocks the hell out of me.

I intend to develop a regulation load now that I have some Reloder 15. I too am curious to see how the recoil compares to the 4831s, which is really not that bad.