Rhino Horns and Elephant tusk Question

[BLJC30]

If you were to harvest an exportable elephant or rhino, could you sell the horn/tusks when you got them home? I know some states have a ban on it but not all of them. I don't plan to go on either of these hunts but am curious what stops people from hunting them then selling the items to pay for the hunt and still make a profit?
I am knew to hunting Africa and ignorant on these type of things.

 

[DieJager]

Because you cannot sell them, not in Europe that I know.

 

[Hunt anything]

Not sure you can even give them away without paperwork. Good question for USFWS

 

[John Wasmuth]

I found this

Buying & Selling Estate Elephant Tusks and Ivory Carvings Now Regulated

 

[Hank2211]

I don't think it's possible.

I will let those Americans more familiar with their legal system comment on the US, but CITES regulates the 'trade' in certain species, including rhino and elephant. CITES has been adopted by the US, Canada and every country in Europe, I believe.

Under CITES, any trade in regulated animals or their parts requires permits, and if those permits aren't available - and they aren't for private commercial sales (except in certain very limited circumstances) - then the trade is illegal.

The US also has the Endangered Species Act and the Lacey Act, which may be applicable). The ESA is generally more restrictive than CITES and certainly would regulate if not prohibit inter-state trade in the parts of listed species. The Lacey Act, for example, makes it unlawful to purchase or sell any animal or part thereof which was illegally traded (and I think being traded in violation of the ESA or CITES should qualify?). I leave it to a US lawyer to determine whether purely inter-state trade is a violation of these laws.

Since the penalties for violating either the ESA or the Lacey Act in the US are quite severe, and we know those laws are enforced vigorously, I would definitely speak to a lawyer, and I would do so even before taking any steps in furtherance of a sale . . . Even finding or locating a potential buyer, with the intention of seeking legal advice prior to an actual sale, might be taken as a conspiracy to violate these laws.

 

[Jason Miller]

Funny how times change, I sold a real elephant tusk on ebay in the year 2000.

 

[PARA45]

Can these items be given away to a relative, or that is illegal as well?

 

[Woodcarver]

Can these items be given away to a relative, or that is illegal as well?

Yes, they can be passed down. They can still be sold, in most states, but there can be some hoops to jump through for an interstate sale.
This would be in regards to ivory. Haven't looked into the rhino horn part....

It might be time to sell one of my Colts that has factory ivory grips w/ the logo. From what I'm finding, Colt SAAs have risen again in value, the ivory is another plus.

 

[Philip Glass]

You now have to be a bonifide big game hunter to hunt a rhino, the reason is that Chinese were coming on Trophy hunts to just get the horn legally. You must have at least taken a buff to hunt a rhino. It’s a process.
good question but not many would do what you are asking about.

 

[Woodcarver]

These bans do prove the point that simply banning the import/sale of something, in this case ivory and rhino horn, only serves to drive up the price on the black market, not stop it. If bans such as these were actually useful, after this length of time no anti-poaching efforts should be needed. Has the poaching diminished in any area that hasn't increased their anti-poaching efforts? A rhetorical question for anyone with any sense.
Guess it is simply another emotional attack on legitimate hunting. Eliminate the ability to import a "trophy" and they (anti-hunters) think hunting will cease. There's another thread on AH about that very thing. Believe the gap is widening for those who would continue to hunt, even if they could not bring anything back.
It is shameful that the governments seizing poached ivory are so ignorant and think it somehow beneficial to the wildlife to put on big productions of burning large piles of tusks. If they had any sense, the ivory would be sold through legitimate channels and the millions raised could be put directly towards anti-poaching efforts. With legal ivory available, the black market diminishes. It won't ever be gone; that's just a reality.
When the animals no longer have value, they will be poached out of existence due to the local population having no incentive to protect and nurture them. And in the case of elephant, suffer some of the destruction they can cause in farm land. This is the reality that anti-hunters cannot grasp. Without hunters, elephant and rhino will disappear from the wild.
Sorry, rant over. Hope my Grandkids still have the potential to hunt the Big 5 when they are older, but not looking very promising.

 

[Aaron N]

You now have to be a bonifide big game hunter to hunt a rhino, the reason is that Chinese were coming on Trophy hunts to just get the horn legally. You must have at least taken a buff to hunt a rhino. It’s a process.
good question but not many would do what you are asking about.

Sorry Philip, is this a thing? I can’t say that I’ve read anything along these lines before, albeit I haven’t put any sort of effort in researching a rhino hunt. Who’s rule is this?

TIA for elaborating!

 

[BLJC30]

You now have to be a bonifide big game hunter to hunt a rhino, the reason is that Chinese were coming on Trophy hunts to just get the horn legally. You must have at least taken a buff to hunt a rhino. It’s a process.

good question but not many would do what you are asking about.

I guess that’s what kind of made me think about it. I seen a video of a guy holding a poached rhino horn and he said that it was worth $250,000 on the black market.
Thanks for the insight!

 

[Philip Glass]

You now have to be a bonifide big game hunter to hunt a rhino, the reason is that Chinese were coming on Trophy hunts to just get the horn legally. You must have at least taken a buff to hunt a rhino. It’s a process.

I guess that’s what kind of made me think about it. I seen a video of a guy holding a poached rhino horn and he said that it was worth $250,000 on the black market.
Thanks for the insight!

Yes that was John Hume in Trophy the film stating that.

 

[Philip Glass]

Sorry Philip, is this a thing? I can’t say that I’ve read anything along these lines before, albeit I haven’t put any sort of effort in researching a rhino hunt. Who’s rule is this?

TIA for elaborating!

RSA rules. When I went to hunt my rhino it was a lot of paperwork and photos to send in the prove that I was a real DG Hunter. I was a bit surprised by the permitting process. It was totally to try to prevent Chinese from booking a trophy rhino hunt and then just taking the horn home.
The things you learn as a traveling hunter!

 

[Hunting Hitman]

Sorry Philip, is this a thing? I can’t say that I’ve read anything along these lines before, albeit I haven’t put any sort of effort in researching a rhino hunt. Who’s rule is this?

TIA for elaborating!

This is true. When you hunt Rhino you have to submit a hunting history with locations and dates. This is done so the South African government can satisfy its licensing requirements for a pro hunter and not a potential black market sale.

 

[Aaron N]

RSA rules. When I went to hunt my rhino it was a lot of paperwork and photos to send in the prove that I was a real DG Hunter. I was a bit surprised by the permitting process. It was totally to try to prevent Chinese from booking a trophy rhino hunt and then just taking the horn home.
The things you learn as a traveling hunter!

Interesting, you’d think that would have gotten mentioned in the few rhino offers posted here. That’s the first I’ve heard of this, but likely to be a moot point for me regardless!

 

[Philip Glass]

Interesting, you’d think that would have gotten mentioned in the few rhino offers posted here. That’s the first I’ve heard of this, but likely to be a moot point for me regardless!

It’s not a big deal or a hard process just strange.

 

[Traveler1]

@phillip Glass, Do you know how long SA started this "bonifide big game hunter" proof? Just asking because its been over 30 years since I hunted my last rhino.

 

[BRICKBURN]

It all started to manage some “hunters” that were appearing to hunt Rhino. These hunters from South East Asian countries had ZERO hunting or firearm experience and were solely interested in acquiring Rhino horn.
It has been around a decade. Can’t recall the date.
This new bona fides requirement stopped these pretenders.

 

[mark-hunter]

If you were to harvest an exportable elephant or rhino, could you sell the horn/tusks when you got them home?

Obviously in states, will depend on regulation.

But must say, internationally is called pseudo hunting.
First it started by sending a fake hunter (non hunter), and client to hunt rhino, all legal costs paid by "third party" to get export permit
Then the horn was shipped to Vietnam or China.This came to light, after a vietnamise girl (I think a prostitute) was issued a permit for rhino hunt, in order to export and sell rhino horn on far east.

This was noticed, and to get permit later (as I understand), to avoid non hunter, hunting rhino like that - when somebody else shoots, before issuing permit, a person had to prove that he is experienced hunter.
So, then, the "third party", just switched to find real hunters to make legal hunt, (it was not that hard to find hunters to go for fully paid rhino hunt), and practise continued.

I think this practise is in decline, but to keep in mind, that going to hunt rhino or ele, predetermined to sell the horns and tusks, may be described as pseudo hunting and is generally discouraged. Informations above I am writing from memory, was reading some book about this, and forgot the title.

I went to look, for some article about pseudo hunting, and found this, and I am sure a better google search will find better results on internet:

Whos Actually Killing and Making a Killing from Rhino?

South Africa is home to 93% of the rhinos in Africa. At the start of the 20th century there were only 500,000 wild rhinos on earth. By 1970 this number had dropped to 70,000, today the estimated…

medium.com

Pseudo-Hunting
“’Pseudo-hunting’ is the practice whereby supposed trophy hunters either need to be told how to shoot or leave the actual shooting to an accompanying Professional Hunter or land owner, a practice that is illegal in South Africa.” — Endangered Wildlife Trust
The use of pseudo-hunting as a way to export rhino horns to Vietnam has been used to get horns out of South Africa as far back as 2003. The exporting of rhino horns is illegal, so poaching can be avoided as a way to obtain ‘legal’ rhino horns by using trophy hunting (a ‘legal’ means of rhino trophy/horn export).