Shotgun weights

[Awage528]

I have an o/u shotgun which I want to make a little heavier but not alter the balance, so I assume you want the additional weight both sides of the present balance point. Obviously it would be easier to put the weight at the end of the stock and towards the end of the barrel, BUT would it be better to try get the weight as near as possible to the existing balance point?
I accept it would be simpler to buy another shotgun, but I'm not going to get that one past the wife.

 

[WAB]

From a dynamic POV you are better to have the weight more between your hands. However, there is such a thing as too dynamic, the common phrase is ‘whippy’. It really depends on what you are starting with.

 

[BeeMaa]

Also depends on the intended primary role of the shotgun. Hunting shotguns are typically lighter all around vs a sporting (competition) shotgun.

Hunting shotguns have to be able to adapt more quickly so being “whippy” can be an advantage. Plus the lighter weight makes them easier to carry in the field. Most often carried more than shot.

Sporting shotguns are shot often. Hundreds of shells in a day is pretty normal. For that, most want a heavier shotgun to reduce the felt recoil and smooth out the swing of the barrels. Barrel lengths of 32” and 34” are not uncommon. Higher end makers offer a weight system to add to the barrels (under the forend) and the stock. This will further individualize the fit to the shooter.

Now enter the human to the equation. Not everyone can afford several shotguns for every purpose. Plus different people have different preferences. Some like the weight forward, others to the back…but almost always between the hands.

Seeking the advice of a professional who can watch you shoot at clays would be a great start. Talk to them about what your plans are for the shotgun and go from there. Adding weight for the sake of making it heavier can cause unintended consequences…like shooting worse.

 

[Nevada Mike]

Puttins weight at the extreme ends of the gun will crush the dynamic handling of the gun (aka 'Moment of Inertia'). If you just want more weight to dampen recoil then the weight should be centered between the hands. If you want to alter dynamics, that is a totally different problem that you will need to solve with a good shotgun 'smith.

I am usually trying to REMOVE weight from my shotguns...

 

[mdwest]

balancing an O/U can be a tricky thing.. especially if we're talking a competition gun... theres a lot more going on than just adding or subtracting some weight to get things right... where the gun balances FOR YOU is as important as how much the gun actually weighs).. how you look down the rib pre and post changes to the gun matters, etc..etc..

for example.. on one of my daughters comp guns (30" bbls).. we needed the LOP reduced by about .75".. doing this moved the balance point about 1" in front of the hinge pin..

but.. screw in a pair of extended chokes.. and the balance point moved back about .5"..

so then it was a matter of figuring out how much weight (not much.. only a couple of oz) to place in the stock, to get the balance point back where it belongs (for her stance, mount, etc the best place is to have it balanced right on the hinge pin of this particular gun)..

You'd be amazed how little weight it takes to move the balance point.. and how much of a difference the placement of that little bit of weight makes..


For me, I like the balance point to be a little forward of the hinge pin.. I have long arms (6'4" tall.. and the arms that go with a frame like that)... when mounting the gun, I tend to push my non firing hand far forward on the forearm.. even on a longer barreled gun (32") the balance point typically isnt forward enough for me.. If Im going to add an OZ or two of weight its usually going to be in the forearm..

Honestly I find it best to either just leave a gun alone (shoot it as it comes from the factory).. or.. take it to a professional stock fitter.. they will be able to figure out how to properly adjust the LOP, then move the balance for you, adjust the comb, etc.. so that you get maximum effectiveness out of the gun.. Its not nearly as expensive of an exercise as you would think (we've got a guy in North DFW thats done fittings for hundreds of the kids that are involved in the HS competition circuit that does great work, has a super fast turn around time, and is super affordable (I paid less than $150 to have my wifes new Berretta fitted and have a new recoil paid installed just last week)....

 

[BeeMaa]

balancing an O/U can be a tricky thing.. especially if we're talking a competition gun... theres a lot more going on than just adding or subtracting some weight to get things right... where the gun balances FOR YOU is as important as how much the gun actually weighs).. how you look down the rib pre and post changes to the gun matters, etc..etc..

for example.. on one of my daughters comp guns (30" bbls).. we needed the LOP reduced by about .75".. doing this moved the balance point about 1" in front of the hinge pin..

but.. screw in a pair of extended chokes.. and the balance point moved back about .5"..

so then it was a matter of figuring out how much weight (not much.. only a couple of oz) to place in the stock, to get the balance point back where it belongs (for her stance, mount, etc the best place is to have it balanced right on the hinge pin of this particular gun)..

You'd be amazed how little weight it takes to move the balance point.. and how much of a difference the placement of that little bit of weight makes..


For me, I like the balance point to be a little forward of the hinge pin.. I have long arms (6'4" tall.. and the arms that go with a frame like that)... when mounting the gun, I tend to push my non firing hand far forward on the forearm.. even on a longer barreled gun (32") the balance point typically isnt forward enough for me.. If Im going to add an OZ or two of weight its usually going to be in the forearm..

Honestly I find it best to either just leave a gun alone (shoot it as it comes from the factory).. or.. take it to a professional stock fitter.. they will be able to figure out how to properly adjust the LOP, then move the balance for you, adjust the comb, etc.. so that you get maximum effectiveness out of the gun.. Its not nearly as expensive of an exercise as you would think (we've got a guy in North DFW thats done fittings for hundreds of the kids that are involved in the HS competition circuit that does great work, has a super fast turn around time, and is super affordable (I paid less than $150 to have my wifes new Berretta fitted and have a new recoil paid installed just last week)....

+1...with the caveat of having to be committed to the discipline.

Fit and handling make a huge difference but the benefits only come to those who practice consistently and have a consistent mount. Repetitive mounts (several hundred per day) of the shotgun over the course of a year is a start. Follow this up with at least 2x monthly live fire drills with a professional who is teaching you and pointing out your mistakes. Now you are on your way.

Most people who go out and buy a Beretta 686 or Browning 725 (or anything else) do not have a complete comprehension of what they bought or how to use it properly, let alone fit and balance it. Although I will admit that most of the AH community does NOT fall into that category.

Education and training are the keys to breaking more clays and downing more game. A good fitting shotgun will help, but not make up for a lack of these.

 

[mdwest]

We're very fortunate in the DFW area in that there are multiple former olympians and a couple of members of the clays hall international hall of fame that are local to the area that are actively engaged as instructors/trainers, as well as a couple of world class fitters/gunsmiths that have built/fitted guns for olympians, national/international champs, etc..

A couple of them are amazingly affordable as well..

One in particular (wont share his name since Im not sure how he would feel about it).. basically just wants to hand down his art to kids.. he charges $25 for per "lesson"... a "lesson" however might involve 2-5 one hour sessions.. basically you dont advance to lesson #2 until you have mastered lesson #1.. if you get through his full program (5 fundamental/basic "lessons") he stops charging you all together.. you just come shoot with him any time you want and he coaches/trains you and gives you on the spot advice, etc.. This guy is a member of the skeet hall of fame, former national champion, shot for the US Navy's competitive team for many years as well, etc..etc.. He has a skeet range built in his backyard with a little pond stocked with fish and a covered picnic table area.. basically parents bring their kids out there, hang out and fish or just sit a the picnic table and watch while he coaches/trains...

Our daughter has gotten some outstanding instruction from him..

Between him and the fitter that most of her team uses (who charges peanuts for what is stellar quality work), its not much of a surprise that they have been State Champions for 7 of the last 11 years.. and National Champs 4 of the last 11 years..

They make sure these kids know exactly how things are supposed to work, what is proper, what is not, etc.. and how to be the best shooters they possibly can be...

I thought I knew quite a bit about shooting shotguns.. Ive shot them all my life, and have been pretty proficient compared to most others I have shot with over the decades.. I too have learned tons just sitting and listening to the coaching, watching multiple guns get fitted for my wife, daughter, and myself, etc.. I realized, I really didnt know or understand anything lol.. and now am just starting to see below the surface and get more of a picture than just the tip of the iceberg..

Youre spot on about people with nice guns that havent a clue though..

I cant tell you how many people I have seen (both kids and adults) show up at competitions.. whether trap, skeet, sporting clays.. or for hunts.. with $10K zoli's, guerini's, etc. with every possible bell and whistle attached to the gun and every known accessory in their bag... that dont have the first idea how to mount the gun, much less what a proper stance looks like, etc.. and then wonder why they cant hit 3 out of 10 birds lol..

 

[HankBuck]

I have an o/u shotgun which I want to make a little heavier but not alter the balance, so I assume you want the additional weight both sides of the present balance point. Obviously it would be easier to put the weight at the end of the stock and towards the end of the barrel, BUT would it be better to try get the weight as near as possible to the existing balance point?
I accept it would be simpler to buy another shotgun, but I'm not going to get that one past the wife.

Typically the preferred balance point for competitive Sporting Clays & skeet shooters using an Over & Under is “at the Hinge point“ . Some might prefer a little barrel heavy and others the opposit. SO to answer your question - balance the shotgun the way YOU prefer it. You can add weight attached to the barrels and also insert into the stock

 

[WAB]

I think I’ve mentioned this before, but it is pertinent to the current discussion; some of the best work on dynamic analysis of shotguns was done by GT Garwood (Gough Thomas Garwood). If you can find his work it is well worth it.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I shoot a heavy shotgun best. My 1961 magnum A5 Browning with 31" barrel is probably the heaviest 12 gauge ever made. I shoot it much better than my 28" Citori 12 gauge. Carrying it all day in the field has never been a problem and I'm not Hulk Hogan. With plastic it weighs about ten pounds and balance point is where barrel and receiver meet.

Shot this triple two years ago at the end of the day walking out. Windy with temps just above zero F. My first and only pheasant triple in sixty years of hunting them. Requires an empty bag and finding three roosters together.

 

[Tanks]

I shoot a heavy shotgun best. My 1961 magnum A5 Browning with 31" barrel is probably the heaviest 12 gauge ever made. ... With plastic it weighs about ten pounds and balance point is where barrel and receiver meet.
.

Wow, that's heavy. My sporting clays gun, Ceaser Guerini Invictus III weighs 8lbs 3oz at 31" barrel. My Grulla SxS hunting shotgon barely comes in at 6lbs with a 30" barrel.

Your shotgun is at the same weight as my .500 NE double.

 

[Nevada Mike]

I think I’ve mentioned this before, but it is pertinent to the current discussion; some of the best work on dynamic analysis of shotguns was done by GT Garwood (Gough Thomas Garwood). If you can find his work it is well worth it.

Well worth reading in any case. He is one of the best writers on shotguns.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Wow, that's heavy. My sporting clays gun, Ceaser Guerini Invictus III weighs 8lbs 3oz at 31" barrel. My Grulla SxS hunting shotgon barely comes in at 6lbs with a 30" barrel.

Your shotgun is at the same weight as my .500 NE double.

Using bathroom scales, it appears this old A5 dressed in plastic and loaded with three steel 1 1/8 oz shells weighs a bit over nine pounds. Would easily be ten pounds if it still was wearing walnut. As opposed to most new autos, the original A5 was all steel ... and quite a lot of it.

O/U is lighter than one might think because there's relatively little to the receiver and no magazine tube, gas cylinders, action springs, recoil springs, etc. Just two hollow tubes. They are not particularly lightweight, but neither are they heavy. Change to plastic or short barrels and they can get out of balance very easily.

I agree entirely, it is very important when shooting MOVING TARGETS, especially in the field, to use a shotgun that fits perfectly. This includes balance (though I certainly would not put balance at the top of the list).

 

[HankBuck]

Using bathroom scales, it appears this old A5 dressed in plastic and loaded with three steel 1 1/8 oz shells weighs a bit over nine pounds. Would easily be ten pounds if it still was wearing walnut. As opposed to most new autos, the original A5 was all steel ... and quite a lot of it.

O/U is lighter than one might think because there's relatively little to the receiver and no magazine tube, gas cylinders, action springs, recoil springs, etc. Just two hollow tubes. They are not particularly lightweight, but neither are they heavy. Change to plastic or short barrels and they can get out of balance very easily.

I agree entirely, it is very important when shooting MOVING TARGETS, especially in the field, to use a shotgun that fits perfectly. This includes balance (though I certainly would not put balance at the top of the list).

ONTARIO: You weigh your A5 on a “bathroom scale” ? Unless it’s Obese or has a Fat Ass it’s possible it could “blame the scale” for it being grossly over weight (like Women do). Actually weighing the gun loaded with 3 shells is like weighing your self hold 3 Beers - Not accurate because both will be “released” soon. So your A% is closer to 8 3/4 lbs….Not quite the hog nor as fat & overweight as I thought. Plus, it serves you well, you are use to it - have grown old together, and it shoots-where-You-look and gets the job done….Not a ”beauty” but reliable And it fits you sand your style. Many of the newer waterfowler 12ga semi auto’s (Beneli SBE and Beretta) have mitigated recoil while keeping the gun a little lighter (7 1/2 lbs.)…to each his own regarding weight preference. In a duck boat 9 lbs may not matter but most don’t want to carry that much in the field and the design of modern semi autos allows a choice. Lastly, I’m a fan of the A5 and it was admired in the duck blind when I was a kid and friend got a new one for Christmas in 1970 — it never jammed, wet, cold, snow & salt water….very reliable

 

[Ontario Hunter]

ONTARIO: You weigh your A5 on a “bathroom scale” ? Unless it’s Obese or has a Fat Ass it’s possible it could “blame the scale” for it being grossly over weight (like Women do). Actually weighing the gun loaded with 3 shells is like weighing your self hold 3 Beers - Not accurate because both will be “released” soon. So your A% is closer to 8 3/4 lbs….Not quite the hog nor as fat & overweight as I thought. Plus, it serves you well, you are use to it - have grown old together, and it shoots-where-You-look and gets the job done….Not a ”beauty” but reliable And it fits you sand your style. Many of the newer waterfowler 12ga semi auto’s (Beneli SBE and Beretta) have mitigated recoil while keeping the gun a little lighter (7 1/2 lbs.)…to each his own regarding weight preference. In a duck boat 9 lbs may not matter but most don’t want to carry that much in the field and the design of modern semi autos allows a choice. Lastly, I’m a fan of the A5 and it was admired in the duck blind when I was a kid and friend got a new one for Christmas in 1970 — it never jammed, wet, cold, snow & salt water….very reliable

When I'm hunting I don't carry an empty shotgun. It's always fully loaded so why should I not be weighing it loaded when discussing what I'm carrying in the field? I weigh myself on bathroom scales then weigh myself with gun in hand. Subtract the difference = weight of gun. Accurate enough.

I own lighter shotguns (including a vintage A5 Light Twelve) and they don't swing as well. Actually, rather poorly. If it means doing a better job killing birds ( = less suffering and lost), then I don't mind carrying an extra pound or two. Have to chuckle about the upland hunters who must carry jugs of water, a box+ ammo, first aid kit, lunch, whatever electronic dog control technocrap they can get their hands on, knives or multitools, etc, etc. But can't carry a gun that weighs seven pounds? That upland vest under the three roosters in the above photo typically contains seven to ten shells in the loops, a dog whistle (if not around my neck), and a teeny multitool in a chest pocket (for removing thorns or quills).

 

[HankBuck]

When I'm hunting I don't carry an empty shotgun. It's always fully loaded so why should I not be weighing it loaded when discussing what I'm carrying in the field? I weigh myself on bathroom scales then weigh myself with gun in hand. Subtract the difference = weight of gun. Accurate enough.

I own lighter shotguns (including a vintage A5 Light Twelve) and they don't swing as well. Actually, rather poorly. If it means doing a better job killing birds ( = less suffering and lost), then I don't mind carrying an extra pound or two. Have to chuckle about the upland hunters who must carry jugs of water, a box+ ammo, first aid kit, lunch, whatever electronic dog control technocrap they can get their hands on, knives or multitools, etc, etc. But can't carry a gun that weighs seven pounds? That upland vest under the three roosters in the above photo typically contains seven to ten shells in the loops, a dog whistle (if not around my neck), and a teeny multitool in a chest pocket (for removing thorns or quills).

Ontario: When you quote a gun weight - every manufacturer lists the guns weight Empty. So when you claimed owning a 10lb A5 — sounded unusually heavy, now you’ve explained it (in your special way) and the error is understood. Regarding hunting and the motto “Never be prepared” Carrying a handful of shells & nothing else else is fine hunting pen raised pheasant, on a preserve or land you know and has water on it for the dog. Hunting wild birds in a new area, might be wise to have some “technocrap”: Compass, map/gps, knife/multi tool, small First Aide kit, water for dog, and a copy of Your Book “I Know it All”.

 

[503]

Bayonet.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Ontario: When you quote a gun weight - every manufacturer lists the guns weight Empty. So when you claimed owning a 10lb A5 — sounded unusually heavy, now you’ve explained it (in your special way) and the error is understood. Regarding hunting and the motto “Never be prepared” Carrying a handful of shells & nothing else else is fine hunting pen raised pheasant, on a preserve or land you know and has water on it for the dog. Hunting wild birds in a new area, might be wise to have some “technocrap”: Compass, map/gps, knife/multi tool, small First Aide kit, water for dog, and a copy of Your Book “I Know it All”.

Generally, most of us hunt pheasants in agricultural areas. Pretty hard to get lost on a farm but I guess it's possible ... for idiots. Cell phone can fetch medical care if needed. I am now on my seventh hunting dog. Have yet to own one that required electronics to control or locate. Often as not snow is on the ground when I'm hunting. No need to carry water when I have a clean fountain underfoot. If I can't shoot three pheasants in ten shots, I should go back to the trailer and call it a day. Can't remember the last time I shot myself out of ammo.

As to packing a copy of my book "I Know It All," upland hunters would be better advised to carry a Bible. Possibly more instructional. Definitely less weight.

 

[Nevada Mike]

There is the old English standard of 96 times the shotload weight in ounces. This is approximately where my birdgun weights seem to fall - 5-1/2 to 6-1/2 lbs. Clay shooters have their own standards.

 

[HankBuck]

There is the old English standard of 96 times the shotload weight in ounces. This is approximately where my birdgun weights seem to fall - 5-1/2 to 6-1/2 lbs. Clay shooters have their own standards.

@Nevada Mike - I have heard of some of those comparisons (shot load/gun weight) but really think that “formula” of 96 x shot load vs Gun weight is arbitrary and meaningless…..must’ve been when Einstein decided to try shotgun shooting - then got distracted by the Manhattan Project. I certainly would Not use that to determine my shotgun weight/load etc…there must be a simpler process? Top Shooters aren’t agonizing over Math Formulas…