Standard Length or Magnum Action, which camp are you in?

[Northern Shooter]

Do you have a preference for one way or the other?

375H&H or 375 Ruger?

416 Rigby vs R16 Ruger?

458 Lott vs 458 WinMag?

505 Gibbs vs 500 Jeffery?

Do you prefer the lower pressures and raw horsepower of the magnum length cartridges? or the utility and lower cost of standard length cartridges/rifles?

 

[VertigoBE]

Magnum definitely, much more classy, it's what the cartridges were originally designed for: voluminous cases. So yes, 375H&H, 416 Rigby, 458 Lott.

On the 505 Gibbs vs 500 Jeffery I have not so much of an opinion, as I have no experience with either.

 

[grand veneur]

I don't quite understand the question.

There is an optimal system for each of these cartridges. For some, an standard length action is absolutely appropriate, for the others, a magnum action should be used if possible. There is no really a choice between actions with these cartridges, except maybe for the cartridges 375 H&H Magnum and 458 Lott. Otherwise you have to make various compromises when modifying standard length actions, which do not always represent an optimal solution.

This means, among other things, that a cartridge 416 Rigby or a cartridge 500 Jeffery is suitable for a magnum system in all cases, even if there were various compromises with standard systems, compromises that no one should make anymore and anyway no gunmakers longer mastered nowadays. The cartridge 505 Gibbs only fits in magnum actions anyway, sometimes even longer than usual.

 

[grand veneur]

Magnum definitely, much more classy, it's what the cartridges were originally designed for: voluminous cases. So yes, 375H&H, 416 Rigby, 458 Lott.

On the 505 Gibbs vs 500 Jeffery I have not so much of an opinion, as I have no experience with either.

I know both cartridges.

I own a rifle caliber 12,7x70 Schüler, and with a rifle caliber 505 Gibbs I often had the opportunity to shoot. The latter was built with a classic Mauser magnum system, a system that would have to be modified for this cartridge. The question of choice of the system for this cartridge does not therefore arise.

As for the cartridge 12,7x70 Schüler or 500 Jeffery cartridge, initially this cartridge was built by Schüler and also a few other gunmakers from Suhl in weapons with standard length systems. Magnum systems were hardly available at that time, and when, they were mainly intended for export to Great Britain. There, no compromises were made, and cartridges like the 416 Rigby and later the 500 Jeffery were supplied with Magnum systems.

For the cartridge 500 Jeffery one had to modify the action and the magazine a lot, and to fix clamps to the system to allow the weapon to be reloaded without too much problems. The few gunmakers who replicated such weapons at the end of the last century have but noticed the advantages of using magnum actions for this cartridge. I am thinking, for example, of Harald Wolf from HATARI TIMES with the cooperation of Tony Sanchez Arino.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I know both cartridges.

I own a rifle caliber 12,7x70 Schüler, and with a rifle caliber 505 Gibbs I often had the opportunity to shoot. The latter was built with a classic Mauser magnum system, a system that would have to be modified for this cartridge. The question of choice of the system for this cartridge does not therefore arise.

As for the cartridge 12,7x70 Schüler or 500 Jeffery cartridge, initially this cartridge was built by Schüler and also a few other gunmakers from Suhl in weapons with standard length systems. Magnum systems were hardly available at that time, and when, they were mainly intended for export to Great Britain. There, no compromises were made, and cartridges like the 416 Rigby and later the 500 Jeffery were supplied with Magnum systems.

For the cartridge 500 Jeffery one had to modify the action and the magazine a lot, and to fix clamps to the system to allow the weapon to be reloaded without too much problems. The few gunmakers who replicated such weapons at the end of the last century have but noticed the advantages of using magnum actions for this cartridge. I am thinking, for example, of Harald Wolf from HATARI TIMES with the cooperation of Tony Sanchez Arino.

You’re 100% on point. The only Magnum length action which is suitable for the .505 Gibbs in a COMPLETELY UNMODIFIED MANNER, is the Granite Mountain Arms African Magnum Mauser action.

Also, the French used to have a really excellent Magnum length Mauser style action in the 1950s. It was called the “Brevex”. Too bad so few of them were made. I’ve seen a .505 Gibbs built on such an action by Dumoulin. Pure beauty.

 

[VertigoBE]

You’re 100% on point. The only Magnum length action which is suitable for the .505 Gibbs in a COMPLETELY UNMODIFIED MANNER, is the Granite Mountain Arms African Magnum Mauser action.

Also, the French used to have a really excellent Magnum length Mauser style action in the 1950s. It was called the “Brevex”. Too bad so few of them were made. I’ve seen a .505 Gibbs built on such an action by Dumoulin. Pure beauty.

The Dumoulin and Francotte magnum Mauser actions were not too bad either.

 

[Inline6]

Magnum size action, why limit yourself? Unless you just have a short action and plan on using it, I don't really see the need to go short. It can be successfully done. IMHO any of the short action Magnums are going to be harder to find ammo for.

 

[One Day...]

Do you have a preference for one way or the other?

375H&H or 375 Ruger?

416 Rigby vs R16 Ruger?

458 Lott vs 458 WinMag?

505 Gibbs vs 500 Jeffery?

Do you prefer the lower pressures and raw horsepower of the magnum length cartridges? or the utility and lower cost of standard length cartridges/rifles?

#1 You can find .375 H&H ammo about anywhere in Africa. Not likely for the Ruger.
Also, if your rifle does not make it to camp, or fails, but you have .375 H&H ammo, the chance for the PH to have a .375 H&H loaner is a lot higher than for a Ruger. I prefer the H&H...

#2 The same 2 points mentioned for the .375 also apply to the .416.
Additionally, the .416 Rigby operates at 52,000 PSI, while the Ruger operates at 62,000 PSI. Admittedly 62,000 PSI is fine, but lower pressure is always better. I prefer the Rigby...

#3 A .458 Lott chamber can fire a .458 Win cartridge (same argument as above about cartridges availability in Africa). The reverse is not true. That alone answers the question. Not to mention the fact that despite modern .458 Win commercial loads being utterly reliable at 60,000 PSI, the .458 Lott hits a lot harder (on both sides by the way). I prefer the Lott.

#4 The .500 Jeffery has a rebated rim that made feeding a nightmare from the day it was created, to the point that Schuler, the creator of the cartridge, actually built its rifles with a single stack magazine. The cartridge's only rationale was to be able to be built on a standard-length military action due to the scarcity or restricted availability of magnum-length actions as mentioned by grand veneur. This advantage is obsolete.
Additionally, the .505 Gibbs operates at very low pressure (39,000 PSI), this is always a plus.
Both .500 and .505 are a lot of gun, too much for many (most?) shooters - be sure to try and shoot one before buying one. I prefer neither of them, but if having to pick a .500 as the only choice I would take a Gibbs over a Jeffery. As it is, I see no real point in them over the .458 Lott.

#5 Lower pressures are always an advantage in Africa: ask the folks who ended up with stuck actions after shooting 'hot' reloads, or even commercial cartridges at the top of the commercial pressure charts e.g. .416 Rem at 65,000 PSI.
Besides, as previously mentioned, classic cartridges (.375 H&H, .458 Win, even .416 Rigby) are easier to find in Africa than the seemingly endless procession of 'new' cartridges that apparently accomplish nothing new beside promoting the name of their manufacturer. I prefer lower pressure and commonly available cartridges.

#6 As to the "utility and lower cost of standard length cartridges/rifles" argument, it is undeniable, and it does carry over into the issues of strength and functionality, noticeably: feeding.

A standard-length military action has enough length to be chambered easily in .375 H&H, although it is clearly visible in the following pic that the longer magazine well starts cutting into the front ring. A longer magazine box is also needed, but it works well enough.

Converting a standard-length action to .416 Rigby-length can also be done (probably the most famous of these was Harry Selby's .416 Rigby) but extending the magazine well to accommodate the big cartridge really cuts significantly into the front ring with 2 consequences:

• The amount of steel retaining the right bolt lug that rests at the bottom of the action when it is closed, is reduced to a minimum, and the argument is that if Mauser did not feel that a longer action was needed to still provide the same amount of locking lug support, they would not have produced a longer action...
• The feed ramp is reduced to a very abrupt and very short ramp, and the fact is that this can compromise feeding, especially with modern truncated solids, which was not an issue (they did not exist) in Selby's time.

Visually, this is what the various Winchester 70 "long" actions look like viewed from the magazine well:

“Standard” a.k.a. “long” Win 70 action. Cartridge length up to 3.34”, narrow magazine box. Typical application: .30-06 family (.25/06, .270 Win, .280 Rem, .35 Whelen, etc.) and similar non-magnum cartridges.

"H&H Magnum" Win 70 action. Cartridge length up to 3.64”, wide magazine box. Observe the lengthened magazine well at front and rear. Typical application: H&H family (.300 H&H, .300 Wby, .375 H&H, 416 Rem, etc.).

Winchester's Custom Shop "Rigby-length" Win 70 action machined from a H&H magnum action. Cartridge length up to 3.84”, wide magazine box. Observe the lengthened magazine well by machining away most of the feed ramp. Typical application: Rigby family (.416 Rigby, .450 Rigby, .338 Lapua, .378/.416/.460 Wby, etc.).

And even a .416-length lengthened action is too short for the Gibbs. There are a number of modern options though: ZKK 602/CZ 550 Magnum, or frighteningly expensive custom actions like Granite Mountain (USA), Johannsen (Germany), Mayfair (England), or if you can find a Brevex (France) or Dumoulin Imperial Magnum (Belgium) action, and of course the newly resurrected M98 action, or the Heym Magnum.

For H&H-length cartridges, I do prefer a magnum action (it allows more flexibility in seating out the bullets) but a standard-length action is fine. For Rigby-length cartridges, I strongly prefer a magnum action. For Gibbs-length cartridges, there is no other option than a magnum action.

 

[grand veneur]

As for the cartridge 500 Jeffery, we all agree that this cartridge belongs in a Magnum action. Jeffery did not without reasons immediately offer rifles of this caliber with such systems. The rebated rim is a other problem, the Magnum Action does not solve all the problems associated with it.

By the way noticed, I bought an rifle caliber 500 Jeffery ( at the time rather caliber 12,7x70 Schüler ) above all not because of the advantages of this cartridge but because I am an aficionados of this one since my youth. The weapon could also be built according to my ideas, shorter, lighter and therefore easier to handle. The cartridge 505 Gibbs was also under discussion at the time the rifle was built, but would have ultimately resulted in a slightly bigger and heavier weapon. However, I know that the cartridge 505 Gibbs offers some advantages over the cartridge 500 Jeffery.

 

[fsrmg1]

Over the years, I've seen too many people short stroke in a hairy situation (including myself), so I prefer a standard length to the magnum purely for that without regard to chambering. I do love some of the magnum length rounds though.

 

[IvW]

Never could get around how a quarter of an inch can cause someone to short stroke......short stroking is an operator error not a length issue

 

[Inline6]

Never could get around how a quarter of an inch can cause someone to short stroke......short stroking is an operator error not a length issue

I always try to run them like I stole them. Watching people run bolts they worry that might hit themselves in the face with the bolt. I try to rip the handle off.

 

[318AE]

Magnum length just feels right with the magnum cartridges…the weight between the hands…

 

[Nevada Mike]

Never could get around how a quarter of an inch can cause someone to short stroke......short stroking is an operator error not a length issue

Not just a reaction of the muscles... it is a tactile, audible experience. You can feel and hear the empty round reject successfully and feel the new round engage the bolt from the magazine.

Practice and attention to what is happening is the key. Not hard, it just needs to become familiar.

 

[grand veneur]

Only that one should not treat tenderly systems like that of Mauser or other similar old military actions, be it when loading or ejecting a empty case.

 

[mark-hunter]

Do you prefer the lower pressures and raw horsepower of the magnum length cartridges? or the utility and lower cost of standard length cartridges/rifles?

I prefer magnum length, because this is why it was invented to take big long cartridges.
World wide availability of ammunition in classic calibers is another matter.

Under world wide availability of ammo, I consider my local gunshop as well. I can find on occasion 375 HH or 458 Wm (not mag lenght), and thats it. Will have to work hard to find 416 rigby, but will be managable, and finding 375 ruger, or 416 remington ammo for me would be mission impossible

medium length action was invented just to reduce production costs.
For external and terminal ballistic, medium length will be ok. But there could be issues with weight of rifle (and recoil), or reduced mag capacity.
That being said, I managed to get magnum length ZKK in 375 as best option.
As for mag capacity this rifle holds 6+1, and with that capacity I cannot find any similar example

But, there is no more magnum length action factory rifle on budget, unless 2nd hand.
So I predict in future will be more and more medium length substitutes, while magnum length will gradually be focused for high end, elite market.

 

[BeeMaa]

As @IvW said above, I believe action length is less of an issue than proper practice with the rifle to be used.

Dry fire practice followed by live range time are some of the best ways to prepare both yourself and your rifle to take on the challenges of hunting DG. Doing these seemingly little things will work out your muscle memory, increase your accuracy, improve your confidence and reveal shortcomings in your technique or equipment that can be changed prior to being in the field.

As for the cartridge I prefer (from your list), it's the 375H&H. I can shoot larger, but not as well as I do the 375 so I'll stick with that.

 

[Philip Glass]

I guess since I have 2 - .375 Rugers I am in the standard length camp.

 

[Boyd Brooks]

All my rifles are built on some brand of Mauser standard action. If my 416 Taylor won’t kill it, I guess I’ll be eaten by some deserving predator.

 

[BeeMaa]

I guess since I have 2 - .375 Rugers I am in the standard length camp.

Don't you have a Blaser R8? The bolt throw from battery to fully back is 4.75 inches (over 12 cm) and can house cartridge up to 3.6 inches.

I wonder if a 416RIGBY (at 3.75 inches) would work in a Blaser R8?