The 308, 30-06, 7x57 Conundrum

[Bill J H]

I love the treads regarding calibers/cartridges for Africa...and elsewhere. I've read the other Title in this Forum (First Safari - I’ll hunt plains game - What caliber?) extensively and there is a great deal of good information.

I reload a great deal and like to shoot a lot. I have my pet go-to loads but I'm always testing new recipes; I use my chrony extensively.

Here is my take and I'd like to hear the group's thoughts and data, especially when it comes to actual projectile velocities. In my mind, when it comes to terminal performance, it all comes down to the projectile connecting with the animal - payload on target - if you will. I'm not saying anything in this post that folks aren't already very familiar with, but I'm going into a bit of detail IOT ask some final questions.

Interestingly, when it comes to the .308 bullet, the 308 Win and 30-06 Sprg are nothing more than different launching platforms for the same bullets; of course the 30-06 can launch all weights at a higher velocity and this becomes of greater significance as the weights increase up to, and above, 165gr.

The 7x57, a rifle cartridge I have never owned or re-loaded for, is launching a different projectile, but of similar weights up to the 180gr area. Naturally, factory ammunition is anemic compared to what re-loaders can accomplish for modern rifles. But since I don't reload for this cartridge and thus have not tested where I can go, I can only guess the velocities I could get. (I do have a nice Rem 700 CDL LA that I've seriously considered re-chambering to 7x57 Mauser.)

When looking at velocity, one has to consider barrel length. Most reloading manuals (and factory ammo box data) use 24" barrels for testing and many hunting rifles for 30-06 are actually 22" with some even 20", while 308s are often from 22" all the way down to 18.5". I have several 308s and with varying lengths and there is a noted difference in most cases. Hence, I can shoot 165gr bullet from a 20" barreled 30-06 and the same from a 24" barreled 308win and essentially negate any advantage the '06 had. Additionally, many rifle's "sweet spot" is not at max velocity to begin with...

Then we can look at what is the actual energy and penetration needed for a good, ethical kill on say, a Wildebeest or Kudu or Zebra, when shot in the vitals. It seems that most folks are shooting 300yds or less, with some exceptions being longer shots.

I know my ballistics for my favorite 308 and '06. For example, my 308 (20" barrel) launches a 165gr Swift Scirocco II at an avg 2695 fps as it's "sweet spot" and this is also about its MAX. My '06 (22" barrel) launches the same projectile at an avg velocity of 2815 fps in it's "sweet spot". This velocity difference is not insignificant at 300 yds, but when looking at terminal performance, does it make a truly significant difference? There is about 140 fp of energy difference (1703 vs 1845) and about an inch difference in drop/drift; shooting off sticks, I guarantee the inch difference means nothing to me...

***If you don't mind, and have your ballistic data, I'm curious what the "actual" velocities you are getting from your 308s, '06s, and 7x57s for your hunting projectiles. With this, one can easily calculate energy/drop/drift at given distances. This would go a long way in sussing out the terminal performance on game most are getting from their favorite and/or recommended cartridges/calibers.***

Here are my favorite platforms: All Ruger Hawkeye Hunters. (L-R) '06, 308 (my fav), and 6.5CM. I run an ultralight suppressor on them, which is currently sitting on the 308.

 

[Puddle]

For general bushveld hunting I like to keep things as simple as possible in order for my lizard brain to operate.

I load the 9.3 Mauser and the .375 H&H so that the bullet impact is never more than 2 inches, high or low, from point of aim, at distances ranging from too dang close and out to 200 yards. And at 200 yards there remains 2,000 fps impact velocity for the bonded bullets to do their work.

With that kind of configuration both the PH & I can focus on our respective jobs - his to get me within 200 yards and to evaluate trophy quality, and at the same time I'm focused on keeping the crosshair centered on the middle of the vitals. I don't want to be doing any knob turning or mental math in the field. When the PH says go, the bullet leaves.

Now, if the hunt is buffalo specific, then the setup changes to essentially POA = POI out to 100 yards.

 

[375er]

I think it really gets down to two different questions especially when Africa is involved.
Which one are you more comforable shooting?
Ammo availability?

 

[Flipper Dude]

I love how you guys can just totally geek out on calibers, ballistics, energy, ad nauseam.

Plains game? 30-06

Next

 

[franzfmdavis]

I’ve been trying to work up a load for my .275 Rigby/7 x 57 Mauser with heavier bullets. The gun has a 22” barrel. My last session was with S&B cases, 175g Hornady ELD-X, H4350 powder, and White River large rifle primers with the following averages:

40g = 2386 (most accurate)
41g = 2471
42g = 2524
43g = 2630

I am going to have a session with North Fork 175g bullets this weekend and can report back.

 

[franzfmdavis]

I’m sure you agree, that there is a point of diminishing return with increased velocity as you risk passing through and through.

 

[375er]

I’m sure you agree, that there is a point of diminishing return with increased velocity as you risk passing through and through.

True. 2 holes are always better than one however. Everything is trade off someway.

 

[skydiver386]

Although I've never owned one, the 7x57 is an excellent cartridge. It was shameful how many arrived in this country as surplus after the war, but were stripped of their barrels and stocks, only because the new owner wanted a more familiar (American) caliber.

My desire is not for a new 7x57, but an older classic Mauser Sporter. With ammo and brass from PPU and others available, it should become popular again. It will do nearly everything the other two will, except with bullets over 180 grains.

With that said, don't any of you enablers on this site try to temp me into buying such a rifle in a fit of weakness. I already have to many irons in the fire.

 

[IvW]

9.3x62mm or 9.3x74R large plains game
7x57mm or 7x57R small plains game

Both loaded with heavy bullets.....sorted.....

The ultimate....9.3x74R/7x57R Bergstutzen......ultimate Africa pg combo...

Light for caliber bullets at high velocity is the wrong way to go.......

Ok I accept I am an old timer.....

 

[mdwest]

Ok I accept I am an old timer.....

With African PG, I think the "old" ways are still the best ways...

NA game like whitetail deer or pronghorn antelope will go down with pretty much anything you hit them with short of using something completely inappropriate like varmint projectiles, frangible bullets, etc.. just about any centerfire rifle caliber with just about any bullet, whether light or heavy for caliber will get the job done...

With African PG youre dealing with a lot more muscle mass, a lot more bone mass, and the animals will to live and their natural response to being hit is very different than NA game...

I am always on the side of heavy for caliber when it comes to any animal in southern africa... PG, DG, etc..

 

[Bill J H]

I agree that, simply put, all of these cartridges will be adequate for African plains game and the same for NA, except possibly for the Big Bears. I don't think there is any real debate about that. I also understand that most - if not all - hunters have their favorite cartridge when it comes to these three. They are all very capable.

What I was really asking was what are your favorite rifles in these cartridges actually "doing" - ballistically?

The ballistics of the individual cartridge/rifle is not subjective - its data; it is what it is when tested.

One's favorite cartridge/rifle is very subjective.

I don't think its geeking-out to discuss what most hunters are actually getting in terms of performance with their individual choices among this lot. If it is, thank God for geeking out, because it led to the 7x57, then the US going against that cartridge in the Spanish American War and creating the 30-03 then 30-06, which led to its derivative offspring (270, 25-06, 35 Whelen, et al); the 308 adoption and all its derivative offspring, Elmer Keith and the 44 Spl becoming the 44 Mag; and the list goes on.

 

[mdwest]

***If you don't mind, and have your ballistic data, I'm curious what the "actual" velocities you are getting from your 308s, '06s, and 7x57s for your hunting projectiles. With this, one can easily calculate energy/drop/drift at given distances. This would go a long way in sussing out the terminal performance on game most are getting from their favorite and/or recommended cartridges/calibers.***

Im pushing barnes 168gr TTSX out of my 18" barreled 308's (Kimber Adirondak and a Rem 600) right at 2650.. Out of my longer barreled 308 (22") the same load is crossing over 2700 and typically hits 2710 +/-

Its been used on countless pigs and deer in TX and also has been very successful against a wide variety of PG in South Africa (everything from impala and blesbok to wildebeest, zebra, and others)..

The upside is it always penetrates deeply.. with smaller and mid sized animals there is always an exit hole and typically very good blood.. with larger, more dense animals like a zebra an exit hole is maybe 50/50.. but the bullet is always found, still intact, on the far shoulder whenever it doesnt exit (which also helps sussing out terminal performance.. you can physically see it has lost minimal weight (if any), has opened up properly, etc..

the down side is the TTSX can ravage meat pretty badly... theres always a lot of bloodshot meat and tissue trauma... so while big blood trails and terminal performance in terms of downing game is excellent.. if youre filling the freezer, youre likely going to lose a bit more meat to a TTSX than other options out there.

 

[JMM]

I have shot a lot of zebras, wildes, gemsbok, etc... as part of culling programs. I use 180 grain Swift Scirocco, A-frames and Sierra Pro Hunters. I use H4350 with all bullets. About 1 grain less for the Swifts to achieve same velocity. All running 2825-2850 fps out of 24" Pacnor barrel. All loads group approximately the same with the exception of A-frame which shoots about 4" lower at 100 yards.

 

[Bill J H]

Thanks MDWEST - good info on what your rifles are doing. I have a Rem 660 with a 20" brl (308) that I've had since high school. I'm NW of you up on the Red River...so the hogs we kill are probably cousins

 

[FlyGuy]

I reload for all 3 cartridges.

Mauser M03 with 600mm barrels. The following velocities are accuracy loads, and not necessarily top velocity loads. All are running at safe pressures in MY system. Your mileage WILL vary. All cartridges are loaded with Norma brass and CCI BR2 primers.

.308… 165gr Sierra Gameking @ 2694 fps
7x57… 160gr Nosler Accubond @ 2711 fps
30-06… 165gr Nosler Partition @ 2904 fps

.308… 180gr Sierra Gameking @ 2632 fps
7x57… 175gr Nosler Partition @ 2640 fps
30-06… 180gr Swift A-Frame @ 2753 fps

IMHO, the 7x57 is what the .308 always wanted to be.
All the above loads were developed old school style. Only once the loads were developed and confirmed multiple times, were the velocities checked with a Labradar. The 165gr 30-06 load was a bit of a surprise though…

 

[mdwest]

Thanks MDWEST - good info on what your rifles are doing. I have a Rem 660 with a 20" brl (308) that I've had since high school. I'm NW of you up on the Red River...so the hogs we kill are probably cousins

We live in the DFW metroplex, but hunt about 3 hours SE in Cass County less than 2 miles from the Louisiana border (closest town of any size is Atlanta, TX... but thats honestly a 30-35 minute drive away.. its not really "close" at all)...

Hogs have been a huge problem this year..

we went from "where are the hogs???" last year (maybe saw 8-10 total all year on the trail cams) to "holy shit, where are the deer?????" this year (seeing maybe 4-6 deer a night on all of the trail cams.. but also seeing at least a dozen or more hogs hit anywhere from 1 - 4 feeders every single night)..

we've been trying to run them off, but with limited success so far.. I have a sneaking suspicion my 2024 deer season is largely going to involve shooting pigs... (but should get a lot of good data on a variety of rifles.. we've been popping them with 308 AR10's lately using thermals at night.. but once deer season opens it will be bolt action 308's during the day.. )..

 

[JP50]

Sorry , don’t reload , but have used .308
In 2019 on plains game with no issues at all- 150 g federal fusion.

300 win mag 2022 - Sako super hammer head - definitely more then enough gun on plains game-

30-06 2024 - Sako super hammer head - again no issues on plains game, shots all under 365 yds.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Both the 7x57mm Mauser and .30-06 Springfield rank as my top two favorite calibers for non dangerous game (although I have successfully hunted dangerous game with both of them).

7x57mm Mauser= I prefer 170-175Gr bullets traveling at a modest velocity of 2400-2440 FPS. Initially, I used the Winchester Super X 175Gr soft point factory load for many years (until Winchester unfortunately discontinued them). Currently, I prefer Prvi Partizan 173Gr soft point factory loads.

.30-06 Springfield= I exclusively prefer the 220Gr Remington Core Lokt factory load for this caliber. Velocity is a modest 2410 FPS. Not the most modest choice, I admit. But one that serves me extremely well, to this date.

Please note however, that the Seladang was killed with an ICI Kynoch round nosed steel jacketed 220Gr FMJ solid factory load.

I have successfully taken African plains game as large as bull eland with both the 7x57mm Mauser and the .30-06 Springfield (one shot kills). However, I personally prefer the .30-06 Springfield with 220Gr bullets for the large Kudu & eland species (esp. bulls) since it permits for a slightly larger margin of error than the 7x57mm Mauser (which requires extremely critical shot placement on these largest of African antelope in order to ensure quick & humane kills).

The .308 Winchester (though an excellent caliber in it’s own right) never got used by me for any sporting purposes (except during the Indo-Pak War of 1971 where my service rifle was a Belgian FN FAL in .308 Winchester).

 

[Redfishga1]

9.3x62mm or 9.3x74R large plains game
7x57mm or 7x57R small plains game

Both loaded with heavy bullets.....sorted.....

The ultimate....9.3x74R/7x57R Bergstutzen......ultimate Africa pg combo...

Light for caliber bullets at high velocity is the wrong way to go.......

Ok I accept I am an old timer.....

This is the best combo. I had hendershots make some custom 140grain barnes … wow.