Trophy Debate

[shooter]

From a polite request to an Outfitter to explain an apparent incongruity ("Seeing lots of larger Kudu", "This one would have been great in three years", etc) to a total Hijack.

So, I changed the location.

The topics are poignant and the debate is useful:
Outfitter and PH responsibility - conservation, ethics, code of conduct, etc.
Client - who really gets to make the decisions
Client - experience level, personal goals.
Trophy - Standards. Laws in different countries.
Hunting

BRICKBURN

Original thread: SOUTH AFRICA: First Safari At Tootabi Hunting Safaris: http://www.africahunting.com/thread...at-tootabi-hunting-safaris.23840/#post-215947

...............
Saw plenty of kudu but nothing big enough, at least not by Lammies standards..............

Loodt, I'm confused??

 

[siml]

As I said previously, I am glad Dobber had a great safari. BUT...the pic of the kudu kept bothering me! What is our job as a PH? This is my opinion, many might disagree, at times we often far too polite on this forum, but the kudu really bugged me. This is an immature bull, his genes have not even reached a cow. Why shoot a young bull like this? We as PH'S have the right to tell a client not to shoot, no way would I have let a client shoot this bull even if he wanted. I have just come off an elephant safari where we turned down an elephant roughly 55 pounds, knowing we can do better, the risk of losing huge trophy fee was there, but to us it's about hunting good quality and mature animals.

Getting back to the kudu...why shoot the immature bull?1) Is the selling of cheap hunts causing over hunting and resulting in poor quality?

2) Is the outfitter chasing $$$$$

3) What is the effect of shooting a young bull going to do to the future of kudu in the area?

I could go onto point 4,5,6...

Dobber, I am truly sorry for bringing it up on your post.....but I honestly feel it's wrong.

 

[billc]

well I am going to make my comments based on the hunter being happy not to stick up for loodt or take sides either way. I dont want to see the hunt reports on here go the way of some other sites were guys will not make a report because they dont want to have guys tear there report apart.

First off I find it in bad taste for any outfitter or person to my comments that degrades a hunters report that was very happy. Would be different if dobber was asking for guys to tell him if he was taken for a ride or if he was not happy in any way.Dont like it at all and it seems to follow a trend towards one outfitter which is sad. Guys are saying things based on past issue and time to grow up and let it pass.

We have facts that the landowner post here and he is ok with the kudu being taken. Hunter seen other kudu and took this one which to him was a trophy. He is paying and he must be happy which I seen nothing to say he was not.

Now again I will base what I know on facts after hunting with tootabi. I was not told to shoot or pass on anything that I did not want or want. Trophy quality was as good as I have seen at any other place I hunted.
The areas are not over hunted or hurting quality at all.
This outfitter is not just chasing cash or selling cheap hunts in any way.I was give animals of great quality at prices that were way cheaper then he could have charged me or others would have.

The effect of taking this young bull is nothing as the ranch has many others of as good of quality to breed on the ranch. Who is to say that kudu would have not been killed in some other way before breeding anyway.

Now we can all say we will only take animals past there prime or only hunt this or that because it is the right think to do. Well that does not mean everyone else has to or will do that. Guys pay and take animals all the time I would pass but I will not tear them apart for it.

Guys it is really time to let go of some feelings we have because of a friend may have had some issue on a hunt. Time to grow up and stop trashing someone because we can.

In the end one person needed to be happy with what he got and that was dobber. His report said he was so let it rest and show some class when it comes to others reports. Sometimes saying nothing is best and the right thing to do.

 

[dobber]

TMS, if it bothers you please send me a private message, you may not like my response but i will be as honest as i can be.

As a first time hunter to SA i made my expectations based off of the ignorance of non hunters, this was going to be easy, its not a hunt, this is a shoot, its a fenced area where the animals are plenty. Much like when i went to Northern Quebec caribou hunting, do i consider that a real hunt, heck no, was an adventure with the bonus of taking a couple of animals, but a hunt, no.
Man was i wrong on all fronts, the miles on my boots, the aches in my legs, the thorns in my shins tell a different story.

Go ahead and throw Loodt under the bus all you want, but be fair warned, he wasn't with us, he didn't say pull the trigger, he didn't pressure any shots or any other animals. He did as was expressed, he did what i knew he was going to do, i was in good hands.
The PH, who i owe more than words can express for the adventure of a life time, he didn't pressure me into taking that kudu, i took the shot, me, the guy with the gun, the guy with the finger on the trigger, the guy that shed a couple of tears when he walked up on, the guy that looks at one particular picture not shown and still gets goose bumps, the guy that has made friends and plans on coming back.

So back to your point at it being wrong, well then thats me, only me, in case you don't understand this, its me, and frankly i wouldn't change a damn thing (well maybe except my shooting, that was my downfall)

My best trophy at home, is a little ole spike horn whitetail buck, the story behind that deer makes it more a trophy than the 140", the 150" or the 180" i have hanging because as someone noted, not all trophies are measured in inches (good thing or the wife will still be out hunting for a husband)

So i ask you TMS, start a thread, don't start a thread, PM me or not, but is this really the place for you to talk about how poorly i did on my hunt. Because others who had a great time, maybe don't measure up to you're standards may decide not to write a report and we collectively miss out on that first time hunters report.

 

[Wildside Outdoors]

TMS,

I am not one to get started in a pissing match, or to speak my mind if I disagree with someone; I usually just keep my mouth shut. As a person who desires to take a trophy animal, I can understand your concern, but I must say this. When I have friends come up and deer hunt with me, I show them trail cam pics of everything that I have, and tell them what I would shoot and wouldn't and the reasons. I encourage them to do the same, but when push comes to shove, if they want to shoot and are truly happy with it, then so be it.

As for your questions below........... Please see my answers.

As I said previously, I am glad Dobber had a great safari. BUT...the pic of the kudu kept bothering me! What is our job as a PH? This is my opinion, many might disagree, at times we often far too polite on this forum, but the kudu really bugged me. This is an immature bull, his genes have not even reached a cow. Why shoot a young bull like this? We as PH'S have the right to tell a client not to shoot, no way would I have let a client shoot this bull even if he wanted. I have just come off an elephant safari where we turned down an elephant roughly 55 pounds, knowing we can do better, the risk of losing huge trophy fee was there, but to us it's about hunting good quality and mature animals.

Getting back to the kudu...why shoot the immature bull?1) Is the selling of cheap hunts causing over hunting and resulting in poor quality? I am not a virgin to Africa so I am not ignorant when I answer this - NO, there are no issues with quality, numbers or anything else for that matter. Everything I shot on my trip was above average except for a cull warthog, which I shot for meat for a local church. If my post wasn't quickly put down the list every time I update it just because it has kind words about Tootabi, people might just see that.

2) Is the outfitter chasing $$$$$ ABSOFREAKINLUTELY NOT! I spent a ton of money with Loodt, but never once was pressured to shoot anything that I didn't want and was provided some animals at prices I will never disclose. Honestly, Loodt didn't make enough for his time as far as I'm concerned, although I thoroughly appreciate the great deal!

3) What is the effect of shooting a young bull going to do to the future of kudu in the area? Nothing as there isn't enough hunting pressure for it to impact. If every hunter that went with Loodt shot one this size, he has enough kudu that it wouldn't effect the quality.

I could go onto point 4,5,6... Please do, I would like to entertain......................

Dobber, I am truly sorry for bringing it up on your post.....but I honestly feel it's wrong.

 

[ActionBob]

Wow guys I hesitate to post anything on something that is this sticky and I was not involved in. But I hate even more to let it ride and potentially drive a wedge between good people.. And to sully up our great board....

@TMS Simon I found myself agreeing with you. And I just now re-read your post, as well as @dobber 's last one.... You are both stating facts as you see them. And you both did so professionally and in doing so made your points without being derogatory. I read it all as what you each see as facts.

Dobber my apologies for thinking (even if to myself) negatively about your kudu. I messaged Loodt and he explained that you are not doing taxidermy and not taking trophies home with you... And that you really did insist that you were there for the experience and that those memories would be your trophies. And that you insisted over and over that this kudu was special to you for the memory of a hard hunt and blown opportunities on others. Congratulations on hunting hard and living your dreams.

However Dobber, also try to see Simon's point. All these guys have it ingrained to try their very best to only take mature animals. I'm sure it pains Simon to see a young bull taken as a trophy.. Like I said, I was a bit shocked myself before I got the rest of the story.

I do hope you got to dine on some of that kudu, it had to be spectacular eating!

And I sure hope you are at least taking those wart hog tusks home with you! They have great character and that thing must have been very old.

 

[billc]

Guys I think the one fact anyone who is judging anything on this thread is missing is this. Dobber was the hunter and happy with the hunt. This should be the end of the story no matter what anyone thinks of the kudu. Some guys hunt to hunt which dobber did.There is no other facts anyone can say that makes dobber kudu wrong to take.

Guys do hunt reports to share there story not to be judge by others. We need to stop with trashing any other hunters to try and prove a point.

It is not hard to see how guys are trying to make a point to make someone look bad. Again sometimes it is better to say nothing at all. You dont need to like everyone on the site and dont need to make a comment on everything to be part of the site. Lets keep this site at that level that makes it better then all the rest.

 

[TEX84]

Isn't it the PH's job to put a first-time hunter on a mature animal?

dobber, I hope you didn't pay full price for that kudu.

you should tell people you shot a mountain nyala. Because that is what an immature one-turn kudu looks like.

 

[dobber]

The PH did exactly that, twice where i was on sticks, one miss and one forgot to load a bullet
What i paid was a fair and reasonable priced hunt
I won't lie about my hunt, my animals or my experience

Yes i shot a young Kudu, but trying to take away from my experience in my report isn't needed, start a thread, send a PM, i understand peoples points, but dammit this was to be my report, something i can look back on

My next hunt will be different, for starters no report, tried to share my experience, understand "My experience" and the worst experience with the entire hunt, and that includes the long flights, the 10 hour lay, over was posting my report here. I am thick skinned so not worried about what anyone has to say as they won't hurt my feelings, also i didn't post it here to get "atta boys" from the group, heck i could have written a damn better version and certainly everything would have fallen with one well placed shot

Hope this doesn't prevent others who have an experience of a lifetime who may not shoot fully mature animals from posting a report.

The rest of the trip, the pictures taken, the baboon story the wife's story and how much she enjoyed the trip, the pictures she took, will not be shared, and yes i expect the "don't care" comments.
The good news is i have 2 other people now thinking about joining me on my next trip, so SA gets a repeat customer who had a great time and will be bringing people for their first experience

oh well, 50 days 14 hours and 8 minutes till my rifle deer season starts up in NWO

 

[Warbird782]

What you say @dobber about not sharing on this forum is not the first time that I have heard this. When I joined here it was a classy forum and people respected others. It seems that the keyboard warriors we all battle on social media have infected some here with their online hate. I have had some of the same treatment here. I am truly happy for you as I am for any hunter who has a successful hunt. I really looked forward to hearing the rest of the hunt.

 

[siml]

@dobber , twice I congratulated you on a great safari. I in no way was trying to take away the wonderful experience you had in Africa. Glad you will be returning. How many times do we read on AH, where people say they have learned things on AH, I have also learned a lot on AH.

As hunters we are trying preserve conservation not destroy it. There is a big difference between an immature animal and a not fully mature animal. I commented to try preserve conservation, it's my duty as a hunter. So now I have ruffled a few feathers, then so be it. But my future livelihood lies in hunter, and it needs to be protected.

@billc, if you think my comment was a personal attack, you couldn't be further from the truth.

I don't see how fellow hunters can see this as an attack!!! This was a comment to educate not insult.

 

[buchnerl]

In the end of the day yet the keyboard warriors don't understand the fact that a member on this forum tried to share his experiences and drafting something he could look onto one day. Yet he has got people commenting as if they paid for the safari and have everything to do with them. Please respect, each members views and how he/she wanted to safari to proceed.

People please, I plead that you respect other people's opinions and their wishes. As @dobber further stated that if you have something to say in this regard, start a new thread - but keep his report clean.

With Africahunting.com being, what I feel to be, the most informative online hunting forum with the best attitudes and people around, I wanted to help ensure that the bullying and trolling didn't begin on the website, however it appears that this website is going in exactly the same direction as all other hunting forums none of us want anything to do with.

Kind regards,

 

[Royal27]

I was staying out of this and will still not address what has become the main topic here. I may regret joining in , but here goes...

I will address the sub-topic of "keyboard warriors" and "online hate." I just read back through the topic and not once did I see a post that disparaged Dobber. Perhaps I missed it. What I did see were polite opinions and a question about how a hunt should be conducted that differed from how this hunt was conducted. That's it. To me, the above couple of posts are saying that difference of opinion shouldn't be voiced. But isn't that after all why we are all here? To learn and share our expereinces and opinions? I've certainly made mistakes in life and in hunting. And I've had people point them out to me, which makes me want to correct them, usually. I've also had people point out things that they thought were mistakes that I didn't, so I kept doing them and moved on.

The only "hateful" comments (and that is too strong of a word, but I will stay in theme) that I've seen in this thread have come from the "defenders" not the "haters." So let's be careful here, especially when those that say they have been targets have also dished it out on this forum, and privately, in the past.

There is next to zero bullying and trolling on this site. The mods make sure of that and for that I thank them. It is what has always made this site different, and why it will be different in the future. I will be disappointed if the good policing doesn't continue. I will be even more disappointed if this site reaches the point where different opinions can no longer be shared and there is only one "right way."

 

[Waterguy631]

Dobber it looks like a great time I hope my first hunt can be everything yours was to you. I was thinking about writing a report as I do for all my travels on a travel site but now I don't know I might just write it and keep it to myself.
Only 6 months to wait.

 

[TEX84]

The defenders seem awfully quick to say that Dobber is "happy" with the hunt and that he got "exactly" what he wanted.

That may be so. But only because he was a first time hunter. How many veteran hunters would be happy with that kudu? None. My point is that it is the PH's job to say, "no, that's not a mature animal; we can find something better."

 

[billc]

Royal the part your missing is dobber did not ask for feedback on his report. It is in bad taste to say what is being said. He has to justify nothing to anyone on here about anything about his trip. Go read other reports and unless someone ask for an opinion you see nothing like this on other reports.



It is well known that people have issue with loodt and have made there feeling known on your report. Bad taste to keep it going and then say it has nothing to do with the past. Come on we all know it has something to do with the past. Guys just need to be honest with themselves. Sometimes it is better to say nothing and be the bigger person.

I dont care who wants to take there shots at loodt for the problems he made for himself but hunt reports are not the place to do it. My comments are based on that it will make this site turn in to all the others with guys not wanting to do reports.

Start a thread and trash the taking of young animals there if you like. Lets keep the hunt reports just that with people telling us all there story of there hunt.

 

[billc]

The defenders seem awfully quick to say that Dobber is "happy" with the hunt and that he got "exactly" what he wanted.

That may be so. But only because he was a first time hunter. How many veteran hunters would be happy with that kudu? None. My point is that it is the PH's job to say, "no, that's not a mature animal; we can find something better."

Your right maybe a veteran hunter would not be happy. But dobber not the so called defenders are saying he is happy. If you read dobbers own words he said he is happy and he knew what he was taking. The PH did not trick him or tell him he was taking an animal that was trophy size. The trophy was how the hunt happened for dobber and that is all that matters.
It is the ph's job to make the hunters trip a good one also. Each hunter has in his mind what is ok to take and what he will be happy with.

The landowner and hunter both were ok with how it ended so a big deal is being made for one reason. Each of us will make are own mind up on why we think guys are saying what they are.

 

[Royal27]

Royal the part your missing is dobber did not ask for feedback on his report. It is in bad taste to say what is being said. He has to justify nothing to anyone on here about anything about his trip. Go read other reports and unless someone ask for an opinion you see nothing like this on other reports.

Sure he did, by posting it here in a public forum, that alone invites opinion. Heck, you are giving your opinion in this thread right now. And you're incorrect, people DO give opinions in other reports. Why don't you go back and read my last report? I was told that I should have shot a Kudu bull that I passed up, one of those opinions came from Warbird in fact. I was also chastised in camp by Loodt for the same thing. I've never regretted not shooting that bull by the way.

 

[siml]

No Bill, you wrong it is a big deal. These immature kudu bulls should be left alone until they are mature and have spread their genetics. Keep this type of thing up and you going to screw up the kudu's gene pool.

If a person is willing to write a hunting report, then we should all be able to comment positively and negatively. Like Loodt says...this is an informative hunting forum. The PH should have thought about the genetics, no way should it be left on Dobber to make the decision.

 

[billc]

royal not really giving a opinion on the kudu but saying we should respect dobbers report. As you can see by the posts the effects it is having is not good. It is taking the site to a place that will help no one in the end. As for the kudu you passed on it was not the same kind of comments. More guys saying you were crazy for passing on an animal they would have taken if they seen him.

Simon I agree it is a kudu that is to young. In your area you would have passed as I would have also. But know your telling the landowner he is wrong for taking it from his land. In the end that is his choice if he lets it be taken or not. Not everyone manages there land the same. He is hurting his land and free to do so really.
You are also telling the hunter who paid and KNEW what he was taking he is wrong.

I am not disagreeing with anyone saying it is a young bull just think if making the comments on this report is helping the site or not. Have heard from more then one person the site is going in a bad direct when it comes to posting any more. We dont stop stuff like this the hunt reports will be fewer and that helps no one. Again you want to make points about not taking young animal start another thread and bad mouth anyone you want.

I am done and will not help ruin dobbers report anymore then I have. I hope he adds and does not let all the bs stop him from posting more.