Value/Ownership of Durability

Ray B

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Just a wondering of how, if pricing was done differently, things would be built without obsolescence. What I am saying is: a company designs a product and builds it and offers it for sale for a price that covers the cost plus profit. the purchaser uses the product and one of two things happen: the product wears out and needs to be replaced OR the product is so good that it virtually never wears out, so doesn't need to be replaced.
In the first design, the producer has a steady business because the thing wears out and needs to be replaced. The business thrives. In the second design, once everyone that needs the item has one, there are no further sales and the company goes out of business.

Any thoughts on how pricing could be done differently so that people could have quality long lasting items without the companies that make them going broke?

Second wondering: A company produces a tool, for example a hammer and sells it for cost plus profit. A carpenter buys the hammer and uses it for 40 years, pounding thousands of nails and framing hundreds of houses. As presently priced, all earnings from the use of the hammer go to the carpenter. What portion of the earnings are attributed to the hammer and those who produced it?
 
Your first example pegs typical American mass-production crap (not just black plastic guns, but appliances, et. al.) Evthing has a 10 yr shelflife now (for the necessary re-purchase down the line.) Let's say you get a $500 'fridge and you have to replace it with same for 50 yrs ($2,500+Bideflation.) IF you priortitize your financial mindset, it's far better to buy that $2,000 fridge up-front (I had one for 30+ years and many other appliances for that matter! Mom still has a gen 1 early 1900s GE freezer in her basement-it was my G. Grandparents'! Still works. Likely spewing some toxic freon.) Autos. With guns, upbuying quality is "simply" going to result in better shots and likely greater hunting success, not to mention retainied and/or appreciated value over time! I detest the mass-produced crap peddled today. Buy Quality and you will $ave, one way and/or the other down the pike! 77 y/o friend still has all of his original hunting gear (incl. clothing) from 50 yrs ago. (I have a 40 y/o expedition weight thermal set that's just perfect to this day. The new crap from People's Republic of Commies wouldn't last 3 seasons.)

Second topic. Keep wondering. All pneumatic these days and typically foreign. They still have that hammer in the good book.
 
Just a wondering of how, if pricing was done differently, things would be built without obsolescence. What I am saying is: a company designs a product and builds it and offers it for sale for a price that covers the cost plus profit. the purchaser uses the product and one of two things happen: the product wears out and needs to be replaced OR the product is so good that it virtually never wears out, so doesn't need to be replaced.
In the first design, the producer has a steady business because the thing wears out and needs to be replaced. The business thrives. In the second design, once everyone that needs the item has one, there are no further sales and the company goes out of business.

Any thoughts on how pricing could be done differently so that people could have quality long lasting items without the companies that make them going broke?

Second wondering: A company produces a tool, for example a hammer and sells it for cost plus profit. A carpenter buys the hammer and uses it for 40 years, pounding thousands of nails and framing hundreds of houses. As presently priced, all earnings from the use of the hammer go to the carpenter. What portion of the earnings are attributed to the hammer and those who produced it?
Ah economics so I can use some of my graduate education (lol). To me pricing is about price seeking versus price taking. Can you build a differentiated product that enables you to price it whatever the market will bare or is your product not differentiated so you have to be competitive with your pricing?
 
Items are def priced to Sell now. Quality is of secondary issue to the sellers.
 
I think it depends a lot upon the item. For example, if we are talking appliances people may not want to pay for longevity because they desire the periodic feature upgrades. However, if you are talking about a good watch it is expected and desired if it lasts forever. My company manufactures mining plant, we design the core machine to have a virtually infinite life if you replace wear components as necessary. So our price point upon the original item can be reasonable because there is an ongoing spares input.
 
My washing machine went out last year. I had it for 7 years. Financially it made more sense to replace it than to get it fixed (parts + labor would have been 75% of a new one with a 5 year warranty).

Wives seem to last only 7-9 years at the most though. Most expensive to replace on a regular basis ;)

However, some stuff last forever. I have Leica lenses I had bought decades ago for my Leica M film cameras. They still work and are excellent for the new digital M cameras.
 
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I’d say it’s all a bit more complicated and the lines blur quite a bit. Everyone’s input is likely to be accurate to a certain degree, and most importantly it will be accurate in their bubble of life (this is not at all an insult). What seems important to me and those in my community is not likely important (or as important) to someone in rural/urban/whatever Ireland/Chile/China/wherever.

Even those of us on this forum, many of whom subscribe to the buy once cry once philosophy, do any of them/us apply it to ALL facets of life, or just the ones we each individually identify as worthwhile.

These topics are fun, complicated, and exhausting. What I believe more and more as I experience life is that each persons life and experience has shaped their individual “needs” and desires and no one shares those exact same needs and desires.
 
What I'm wondering about is more of a credit- not cash liquidity but praise. Take the tool industry for example. they make tools and sell them. Some last virtually forever and with them thousands of tasks are completed. But because there are only so many people skilled with using their tools, since the tools never wear out, there comes a point where the market is saturated and no further tools are sold- the company goes out of business. Yet the company's products live on.
 
What I'm wondering about is more of a credit- not cash liquidity but praise. Take the tool industry for example. they make tools and sell them. Some last virtually forever and with them thousands of tasks are completed. But because there are only so many people skilled with using their tools, since the tools never wear out, there comes a point where the market is saturated and no further tools are sold- the company goes out of business. Yet the company's products live on.


I've never seen more hammers for sale than now. I also think "how many hammers does the world need?" Apparently it's always more.

i can't think of company that has gone out of business because everyone already had one who wanted one.

In another case, can you believe the number of roto-molded cooler companies now AND the fact that prices are STILL ridiculously high? I can't...
 
I think it depends a lot upon the item. For example, if we are talking appliances people may not want to pay for longevity because they desire the periodic feature upgrades. However, if you are talking about a good watch it is expected and desired if it lasts forever. My company manufactures mining plant, we design the core machine to have a virtually infinite life if you replace wear components as necessary. So our price point upon the original item can be reasonable because there is an ongoing spares input.
Another (US) hunter acquaintance was an occupational doctor that gave routine exams to workers at Phelps Dodge mines on the border w/ Moz. Were you familiar with that mining region? I saw coal mining in-action at the Tuli Block coal mine along the Limpopo not far from Bots. There, it appeared to be the softest, tarry coal ever seen so all the workers were simply shoveling it! (I couldn't ascertain while driving by whether they were simply transferring piles into delivery trucks or literally mining with shovels!) Here the anthracite is so hard that drilling, blasting, heavy equip. and mining cutting equipment must be used.
 
Another (US) hunter acquaintance was an occupational doctor that gave routine exams to workers at Phelps Dodge mines on the border w/ Moz. Were you familiar with that mining region? I saw coal mining in-action at the Tuli Block coal mine along the Limpopo not far from Bots. There, it appeared to be the softest, tarry coal ever seen so all the workers were simply shoveling it! (I couldn't ascertain while driving by whether they were simply transferring piles into delivery trucks or literally mining with shovels!) Here the anthracite is so hard that drilling, blasting, heavy equip. and mining cutting equipment must be used.
I know the Moz area CW, but I confess I have travelled only once to the Bots border and never saw the area you speak of. Zim is an interesting little country geologically, it has a little bit of everything, coal in abundance.
 
What I'm wondering about is more of a credit- not cash liquidity but praise. Take the tool industry for example. they make tools and sell them. Some last virtually forever and with them thousands of tasks are completed. But because there are only so many people skilled with using their tools, since the tools never wear out, there comes a point where the market is saturated and no further tools are sold- the company goes out of business. Yet the company's products live on.
The tool companies tools last mostly for ever. But they make their money mostly on the 10mm and 13mm sockets that always seem to run away and then have to be replaced.
 
Just a wondering of how, if pricing was done differently, things would be built without obsolescence. What I am saying is: a company designs a product and builds it and offers it for sale for a price that covers the cost plus profit. the purchaser uses the product and one of two things happen: the product wears out and needs to be replaced OR the product is so good that it virtually never wears out, so doesn't need to be replaced.
In the first design, the producer has a steady business because the thing wears out and needs to be replaced. The business thrives. In the second design, once everyone that needs the item has one, there are no further sales and the company goes out of business.

Any thoughts on how pricing could be done differently so that people could have quality long lasting items without the companies that make them going broke?

Second wondering: A company produces a tool, for example a hammer and sells it for cost plus profit. A carpenter buys the hammer and uses it for 40 years, pounding thousands of nails and framing hundreds of houses. As presently priced, all earnings from the use of the hammer go to the carpenter. What portion of the earnings are attributed to the hammer and those who produced it?
I think there's a second factor to consider here. Namely, most stuff people buy is rapidly obsolescent, no matter how well made.

Take cars as an example. In 2000, you could buy a cheap ford, or you could buy a top of the line S class Mercedes (likely the most advanced car on the planet at the time). The Ford might be built to last 10 years, the Mercedes might (although actually maybe not) be built to a quality to last 30+. The Mercedes was undeniably a better car at the time as well. But then it should be, it cost 10x the price.

Fast forwards 10 years, the Ford is scrap, the Merc soldiers on. But then, the Merc is now 10 years old. All the stuff that made the Merc so impressive in 2000 is now fairly commonplace. Radar guided cruise control, whisper quiet engine with 300hp, air suspension, parking sensors, satellite navigation, ventilated heat and cool seats, infotainment. All (or at least most) could be had on a new Ford by 2010 anyway. So it's a question of buying 2 Fords over 20 years for say $40k in modern money, or one Merc over 20 years for $200K in modern money, and a mere 10 years later having almost exactly the same experience anyway (maybe even better in the modern Ford in some ways), and the comfort of a new vehicle with a warranty. The Merc makes no financial sense, unless you value the cool factor of having a very fancy car for that period 2000-2005 when you had stuff that nobody else did.

The situation is the same with most everything. Buy a very expensive phone built to exacting standards of quality expecting it to last 30 years, and it might, but it doesn't matter how well made it is, it's still outdated junk in 5. Computer, ditto, kitchen appliances, possibly ditto, a TV, ditto again. For most stuff people buy as big ticket items, the tech advances too fast for build quality to dictate obsolescence date anyway, so why worry about it?

Even in shooting this is partially true. A fine rifle made in 1950 is still a fine rifle, as good as a modern option, but then a top of the line scope from 1950 is, by modern standards, average at best.

Build quality only really matters in fairly stagnant product types that aren't beholden to fashion (so not soft furnishings for instance unless you like the retro look), like housing, simple mechanical devices with no electronics, basic tools, perhaps furniture. There just aren't a lot of these things extant in the modern world, and a very small market of people willing to pay massively over the odds to buy the top of the line variants of these things.

To your question though, I think these 'good quality' items do still exist, they're just very expensive and therefore quite niche. You can buy a London best gun that'll last several lifetimes, but most can't afford to, and even of those who can, most don't bother. They buy a cheap savage. The same with fine custom knives vs a cheap one, or a very fine toolkit vs a cheap one or a nice mechanical watch vs a cheap disposable quartz. There's also the annoying fact that most of these basic items are simple enough to be reliable and durable even if cheaply made, so there's even less advantage to buying 'quality' (beyond wanting to have nice things, obviously).

The only way these things become popular is to either persuade people to value them, or alternatively to actively stifle the cheap mass market competitors. Neither is likely and honestly, whilst I do like having 'the best', I'm also kinda glad that I can buy a cheap rifle or a decent toolkit or a TV for the equivalent of a couple hours wages if I like.

I'm not sure that was actually the case for much of history and given the choice of a cheap rifle vs no rifle in their budget at all, I'm sure most would happily buy the cheap one (for context, a simple breechloading shotgun in 1850 in the US was $60ish, versus an average monthly wage of about $30. Or about $6000 equivalent today).
 
Functional obsolescence or economic obsolescence exits in all items we purchase, even homes. Younger generations want the newest trinkets, the older generation normally are satisfied with functional performance…..i.e. A top loading washing machine that functions as designed compared to a push button control panel, newest style and color designer series that lasts 7 years to the older plain Jane 25 year old model that serves the purpose. All in marketing and convincing the consumer it is needed to keep up in the newest and best technology. Think of Microsoft and their never ending upgrades for software. How many could still function with Windows 7 as compared to the features never used in current Windows version. We are turning into a disposable society due to the Economic business model existing in most manufacturing. Satisfying an immediate need at a lower price is the norm without long term thought to the future usefulness or longevity of an item is long past gone….anyone remember the all wool carpeting that would last forever?…but who would want it today due to lifestyle and decor changes.
 
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