Westley Richards .500 Nitro Express

[redriverjake]

Hello gentlemen, I’m in need of your expertise. I have a rifle here I would like some information on. Eventually I'm going to have Westly send me their records but I’m curious to see what y’all can tell me about it in the meantime. A couple of things I know so far... according to the serial numbers the rifle was supposedly made between 1930-1940, it has 24” barrels, and the right firing pin is protruding. That’s about it, have a look and tell me what you think. Thank you.

P.s. Sorry for the crap photos, I’ll take better ones when I have more time.

 

[cmk]

Beautiful rifle. By no means knowledgeable in these areas, but I understand the the various proof marks to state that it is the longer variant of 500 NE (3.25") and that it was proof tested in Birmingham. 16 tons per square inch, is only about 32,000 psi (or 2200 Bar). According to Wikipedia, the 500 NE has a max pressure of 40,000 psi. If my calculations are correct, that means that you should be careful when loading your ammo, as published data may assume a higher acceptable working pressure.

I don't know what the "X"-like mark is.

 

[Pondoro]

What you have is a Westley Richards "gold name model", a standard boxlock or Anson-Deeley lock..

It was their standard model, but by no means a cheap model, just a no frills, non-engraved very well made tool to hunt dangerous game under any condition..a real classic from a golden era...treasure it..!

I have looked at a couple....they were made in several calibres...I looked at ca. 1910 vintage one in .318 WS...a beautiful rifle....

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Is there a drool emoji here? Wow.

 

[sierraone]

I am pretty sure Pondoro is correct. But to be sure on anything Westley Richards, contact L D McCaa, manager of Westley Richards USA in Gulf Breeze, Florida at 850-677-3688. I've known L D for five years and have learned a lot from him. He took over W R USA just over two years ago. If you are in the area, call and make an appointment, you can't just walk into a shop with England's finest firearms filling the vault racks. He also has contact with Birmingham on a regular basis if he comes across anything above his knowledge base. Good Luck!

PS....There is a 12 bore Gold Name on the Westley Richards Explora site. if you want check it out.

 

[tarbe]

What a helpful bunch on here!

Good job!

Nice rifle!

 

[redriverjake]

I appreciate the replies fellas. I tonight it might be a “gold name” but I wasn’t 100% positive. I wonder if it might be a Nitro for Blackpower loading seeing that the pressure is lower than might be expected ? It doesn’t have have any markings indicating a bullet weight or power charge. With that removable floor plate on the action, would be be considered a hand detachable or drop lock type of affair ? This is only the second time I’ve had it out of the case and there’s still so much I don’t know.

P.s. one of these days it sure would be neat to find a 12 bore that would closely match the rifle and have a nice leather case made up to house both of them.

 

[Red Leg]

My post is going to sound like a downer, and I don't mean for it to. However, I have a very, very expensive education in restoring old doubles - guns and rifles.

It is not a hand detachable model. The Gold Name is a classic Anson and Deeley action - nearly all of such actions, regardless of maker, have a screw holding on the bottom of the action plate. This is potentially a great find, but it also clearly has issues. You either have a broken firing pin or broken action spring - I am guessing the later and there are only about three people in the US I would trust to build me a new one.

It has seen hard use. At some point it was reblued (including areas it should not have been) - hopefully a rust or cold blue job rather than a bluing tank. The later can affect the rib solder. You can suspend the barrels by the forend latch using one finger and tap them with the wooden handle of a hammer or something similar. If they ring like a church bell, say a prayer of thanks. If they make a "clunk" sound then you likely have significant barrel issues. Next, put the barrels on without the forend in place. If there is any movement, or if you can hold it up to a strong light and see any gap between the action face and the barrels, they will need rejointing - common in heavily used doubles (rifles and shotguns). Lastly the screws have been buggered by someone using too small a screwdriver. That means someone who should not have been, was inside the action - maybe several somebodies. Were it me, I would send it to JJ Perodeau http://jjperodeau.com/ immediately and have him go over it. Cosmetic things - stock, bluing, case color, etc can be done if and when you feel like restoring it. Barrel issues, springs, etc need to be fixed before attempting to fire it.

These older, well used guns can be a bargain or a nightmare. They don't get any better by not knowing. The firing pin tells us we have at least one potentially significant issue, the bluing could indicate a second, and the screws would scare me a lot.

If we are lucky, it is just a spring or pin issue. If we are not - well, see what JJ says about it.

 

[redriverjake]

My post is going to sound like a downer, and I don't mean for it to. However, I have a very, very expensive education in restoring old doubles - guns and rifles.

It is not a hand detachable model. The Gold Name is a classic Anson and Deeley action - nearly all of such actions, regardless of maker, have a screw holding on the bottom of the action plate. This is potentially a great find, but it also clearly has issues. You either have a broken firing pin or broken action spring - I am guessing the later and there are only about three people in the US I would trust to build me a new one.

It has seen hard use. At some point it was reblued (including areas it should not have been) - hopefully a rust or cold blue job rather than a bluing tank. The later can affect the rib solder. You can suspend the barrels by the forend latch using one finger and tap them with the wooden handle of a hammer or something similar. If they ring like a church bell, say a prayer of thanks. If they make a "clunk" sound then you likely have significant barrel issues. Next, put the barrels on without the forend in place. If there is any movement, or if you can hold it up to a strong light and see any gap between the action face and the barrels, they will need rejointing - common in heavily used doubles (rifles and shotguns). Lastly the screws have been buggered by someone using too small a screwdriver. That means someone who should not have been, was inside the action - maybe several somebodies. Were it me, I would send it to JJ Perodeau http://jjperodeau.com/ immediately and have him go over it. Cosmetic things - stock, bluing, case color, etc can be done if and when you feel like restoring it. Barrel issues, springs, etc need to be fixed before attempting to fire it.

These older, well used guns can be a bargain or a nightmare. They don't get any better by not knowing. The firing pin tells us we have at least one potentially significant issue, the bluing could indicate a second, and the screws would scare me a lot.

If we are lucky, it is just a spring or pin issue. If we are not - well, see what JJ says about it.

Thank you for the shared wisdom. Two pieces of good news are the rifle isn’t going anywhere and that I have all the time in the world to sort it all out. Is there anything you can tell me about the proof marks ? Could it be a 3 1/4 NFB ? I do know it was shot with standard 3” nitro loads but I’m not sure how often. I have no idea about it’s service history either. There was a small bit of play in the action area the one time I’ve had it all put together, however, I didn’t determine whether it was in the face of the action, the wood to metal fit behind the action, or another cause. I’m thinking that when I have a good idea of what all is going on it might need a trip back to Westly for a good going through. Thoughts ? I want to get her back in good working order but don’t ever intend it to be a hard working rifle again, I’ve got modern rifles for that. It would be nice to get it back into the field for a few special hunts one of these days though.

 

[Red Leg]

These things are always a question of economics and time. WR can do everything from making it mechanically reliable to a full restoration. They will be the most expensive, but a maker restoration will also add the most value back into the gun. Someone like Perodeau at least would be able to quickly tell you what the issues are.

But they can also be a money pit. For instance, the movement you indicated. If it is merely “off face” a proper re jointing can be $250 - $850 depending upon whether filling the hook will fix it or whether a new joint pin needs to be fitted. If it is instead the stock head which has loosened, that can be a small or big problem depending upon the issues. The gun shoudn’t Be fired until those two things are fixed (and obviously the firing pin problem).

A chamber cast needs to be made of the chambers. Way too many of these guns have had bad things done to the chambers. I took a double rifle drilling to the range that was marked and sold as a 7x57r x 7x57r x 16. I fired two shots and fire-formed straight wall brass emerged. Some deranged idiot had bored the chambers to turn it into some sort of rimmed magnum. Miracle the gun hadn’t blown up. Again, someone like JJ can do that so you know exactly what you have.

All that said, there is “value” to me in bringing one of these old girls back to life. I have a now magnificent pre-WWI William Cashmore “Nitro” pigeon gun into which I have put an enormous amount of love and money. Turnbull did the case colors, the stock was fully restored, the barrels were sent off to the UK for “best” re-blacking, etc. I purchased it for around $3k, put three years and perhaps another $6k into it, and it is now an wonderful $5500 to $7500 pigeon gun. It is a fine madness.

 

[redriverjake]

These things are always a question of economics and time. WR can do everything from making it mechanically reliable to a full restoration. They will be the most expensive, but a maker restoration will also add the most value back into the gun. Someone like Perodeau at least would be able to quickly tell you what the issues are.

But they can also be a money pit. For instance, the movement you indicated. If it is merely “off face” a proper re jointing can be $250 - $850 depending upon whether filling the hook will fix it or whether a new joint pin needs to be fitted. If it is instead the stock head which has loosened, that can be a small or big problem depending upon the issues. The gun shoudn’t Be fired until those two things are fixed (and obviously the firing pin problem).

A chamber cast needs to be made of the chambers. Way too many of these guns have had bad things done to the chambers. I took a double rifle drilling to the range that was marked and sold as a 7x57r x 7x57r x 16. I fired two shots and fire-formed straight wall brass emerged. Some deranged idiot had bored the chambers to turn it into some sort of rimmed magnum. Miracle the gun hadn’t blown up. Again, someone like JJ can do that so you know exactly what you have.

All that said, there is “value” to me in bringing one of these old girls back to life. I have a now magnificent pre-WWI William Cashmore “Nitro” pigeon gun into which I have put an enormous amount of love and money. Turnbull did the case colors, the stock was fully restored, the barrels were sent off to the UK for “best” re-blacking, etc. I purchased it for around $3k, put three years and perhaps another $6k into it, and it is now an wonderful $5500 to $7500 pigeon gun. It is a fine madness.

That’s a wealth of knowledge you have my friend and I appreciate you passing it on. If the rifle was in America I could consider sending it to Mr. Perodeau but that’s not an option. That’s kind of why I am relying on fellas with your type of experience to help me understand what exactly it is and what’s going on with it before we consider sending it back to the shop to have it worked on. Thank you again

 

[4 Bore]

Your gun has fixed ( non detachable locks ). Also check the barrels . These older rifles often have some of the rifling inside the barrels worn out . When you get the gun restored , if you plan to shoot it , start with really light loads as a caution. Then you can slowly kick things up.
All in All , great Find
BTW , Mr. Simon Code at Westley Richards would probably gladly restore your gun... For a price

 

[sierraone]

Your gun has fixed ( non detachable locks ). Also check the barrels . These older rifles often have some of the rifling inside the barrels worn out . When you get the gun restored , if you plan to shoot it , start with really light loads as a caution. Then you can slowly kick things up.
All in All , great Find
BTW , Mr. Simon Code at Westley Richards would probably gladly restore your gun... For a price

FYI, Simon Clode died in December, 2016. Anthony Alborough-Treagear is the current Managing Director...other wise known as Trigger. But you are correct in they will gladly restore the rifle...for a price!

 

[edward]

ah,anything and everything for a price,but thats life.

 

[rookhawk]

A couple thoughts from the peanut gallery here. Please don't take it as casting shade on your gun, its a British made double rifle, so it isn't all bad.

The gun has been worked over in a number of troubling ways. Take stock in everything @Red Leg wrote herein.

The gun is the lowest grade double rifle Westley Richards made, and the crudeness of it is significantly below what we call a "gold letter" model from the 189-1910 era guns. Nonetheless, saying its the worst Westley Richards ever made is like saying the Ferrari 308GT is the worst car they made in the past 40 years...it's still a ferrari! The labeling (gold inlay) is really rough...not anything like the steady hand of the several WR gold letter models I've owned which causes me to raise an eyebrow at what I'm seeing.

35,840psi is the proof pressure listed on the proof marks. The 16 tons per Square was BRITISH LONG TONS so please make sure to keep that in mind. So the 3" 500NE has a proof pressure of 40,600 psi so its safe to say that indeed, this is not a "Full, modern, 3" 500 NE" gun. So what is it? Chamber cast is essential to find out if its a 3-1/4" chambered gun. Shooting 3" loads could have caused some fairly serious issues to the gun so getting it inspected is important at this point. Also, VERY CAUTIONARY warning as the bushed strikers look wrong. They are bulging out of the action in an odd way. Please do NOT fire this gun as it is right now. Something is very wrong.

Some data points to try to figure out what it might be based on proof marks. 500 Nitro for Black Express 3" had a service pressure of 11 tons per square, so the 16 tons per square proof pressure would be a possible option. The service pressure of 500NE 3" was 16 tons per square, so that matches the proof pressure of 16 tons per square, ruling that out as an option. (proof pressure for safety testing is higher than working/service pressure) So it isn't for a 3" 500NE with a 570gr bullet and 80 grains of cordite at 2150fps out of a 28" barrel...it has to be something less than that.

I would pay Wesley Richards to run a history and build report on the gun, their notes might say exactly what it was. It could be some 500 3-1/4" light nitro odd-ball using a lighter bullet, many strange things were made. The "BNP" mark for Birmingham Nitro Proof at least indicates its a nitro load of some sort, not black powder only. The proof mark just says ".500" which is an odd mark compared to all that I've seen and owned to date as well. Definitely worth a chamber cast to make sure its not a 500-465, 500-416, 500-something-else.

Update: there is a circa 1957 WR that sold through one of the normal dealers awhile back. Virtually identical to your gun in fit/finish. Even the less than professional gold name compared to the earlier years. It weighed 10lbs 7 ounces. It was a 500-465 NE. I'd weigh your gun to see if that matches yours? The case length was often 3-1/4" and the service pressure of 14 tpsi would match the 16tpsi proof pressure well also. The 500-465 is a 500NE case necked down to hold a .470 caliber bullet. That would all add up nicely to put the pieces of the puzzle together.

 

[4 Bore]

FYI, Simon Clode died in December, 2016. Anthony Alborough-Treagear is the current Managing Director...other wise known as Trigger. But you are correct in they will gladly restore the rifle...for a price!

That's so unfortunate . I didn't know he died

 

[redriverjake]

Here is a better look at the proof marks

 

[rookhawk]

Proofed at Birmingham in 1956.

.500 caliber
3” case
Nitro proof
16 ton proof pressure

My conclusion:

Some odd-ball light nitro cartridge. No idea what light bullet must be custom made but it would have to be slight to get to the right low pressure. Probably a load using 3031 powder to fill the case a bit. You need a world expert to decide what the load should be UNLESS Westley Richards can tell you.

You’ll pay a lot to get this gun a reliable load unless you can get the manufacturer to help. The gun still needs a gunsmith as it has several issues to be worked through also.

Please take a caliber and measure the muzzle. Is it .500? Or more like .465” or so?

 

[rookhawk]

I keep asking for a muzzle diameter because I don’t trust the proof house. The gun isn’t what it says it is by all data provided, and the proof house couldn’t even spell tons correctly. (TCNS)

Inspector I in 1956 may have been having a sloppy day overall.

 

[Russ-F]

A couple of points:

The barrels are marked with the 'Service' pressure - NOT the pressure generated by the proof rounds (which was significantly higher).

This principle applies to both British rifles & shotguns.

Firearms proofed in some other counties are stamped with the actual proof pressure - which naturally can cause confusion.

In other words this rifle has been proofed for ammunition which produces a maximum of 16 tons pressure.

The rifle (as marked at least) is chambered for a .500 cartridge which uses a 3" case & produces 16 tons maximum service pressure.

As regards the firing pin sticking out - a likely cause is a breakage of the little retraction spring which is found on the inside of the striker disk (or the spring is gummed up). It's an easy thing to fix. As noted in other posts though, there are other more expensive causes but the odds are it's the little retraction spring.

An email to W-R will confirm all details, confirm if there's been any 'alterations' & hopefully give you some history.

Regards
Russ