What's So Great About The 400 H&H?

[TOBY458]

While looking at rifles at the DSC show last weekend, I noticed a few rifles chambered in 400 H&H. I have to admit to being a little intrigued by this caliber, simply because the name sounds kind of cool. I was told by a vendor that he would choose the 400 H&H hands down over the 416 Rem Mag. He claimed it was much easier to get the advertised velocity from it than it was from the 416 Rem Mag. I thought that sounded kind of strange due to the fact that the 400 H&H has less case capacity than the 416 Rem. I also see no advantage in regards to case taper for reliable feeding and extraction. 411 bullets do offer a VERY slight edge in SD, but are not as readily available as 416 bullets. So what gives? Am I missing something?

 

[Pheroze]

I suspect the 400 H&H and 416 RM would perform similarly. The case on the H&H has a very long neck and sloping shoulder, so feeding should be great. Less powder to get the same velocity with the 400.

The best description I heard is that it shoots the same bullet as the 450/400 but at almost 2400 fps. And, we know the reputation of that one! Or load it down to equal it's velocity if you want to.

Unique!

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/400-h-h.21018/

 

[CoElkHunter]

While looking at rifles at the DSC show last weekend, I noticed a few rifles chambered in 400 H&H. I have to admit to being a little intrigued by this caliber, simply because the name sounds kind of cool. I was told by a vendor that he would choose the 400 H&H hands down over the 416 Rem Mag. He claimed it was much easier to get the advertised velocity from it than it was from the 416 Rem Mag. I thought that sounded kind of strange due to the fact that the 400 H&H has less case capacity than the 416 Rem. I also see no advantage in regards to case taper for reliable feeding and extraction. 411 bullets do offer a VERY slight edge in SD, but are not as readily available as 416 bullets. So what gives? Am I missing something?

Pheroze needs to chime in as he knows quite a bit about this caliber. In another thread he stated he has built or is building a rifle in that caliber and posted photos of the .400 h and h cartridge.

 

[TOBY458]

I suspect the 400 H&H and 416 RM would perform similarly. The case on the H&H has a very long neck and sloping shoulder, so feeding should be great. Less powder to get the same velocity with the 400.

The best description I heard is that it shoots the same bullet as the 450/400 but at almost 2400 fps. And, we know the reputation of that one! Or load it down to equal it's velocity if you want to.

Unique!

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/400-h-h.21018/

My 416 Rem feeds like goose shit sliding down a waterfall, so that's no advantage for the 400.
Also the 416 can be loaded down to 450/400 level with no problem. So, strike two.
More case capacity for the 416 Rem, so pressure would be lower for similar velocity. Strike three!
Lol! I still think the 400 H&H sounds cooler, but that's about the only advantage as far as I can see.
I'm thinking Holland & Holland simply didn't want to put Remington's name on their rifles.

 

[Pheroze]

I believe the RM gets to max speed with about 77gr of varget while the H&H will do it with about 72gr. So, I think the recoil is less in the H&H. But, that's splitting hairs when firing a 40cal. The real difference is the RM is just ugly in comparison, and no one wants to find hunting glory clutching something so ugly.

 

[Pheroze]

Pressure is lower in the H&H - Lee Manual indicates 63796 for the RM. CEB data indicates 62000 for the H&H that last strike was dropped by the catcher and the english dude is heading to first.

 

[Ridgewalker]

Come on Toby! That’s one you haven’t bought and sold! I think you need one for that upcoming DG hunt! As long as you don’t sell it the week before you fly out!

 

[TOBY458]

Pressure is lower in the H&H - Lee Manual indicates 63796 for the RM. CEB data indicates 62000 for the H&H that last strike was dropped by the catcher and the english dude is heading to first.

Wait a minute! The pressure for the 400 is based on 2325 FPS. The pressure for the 416 RM is based on 2400 fps. Get yo facts straight! America for the save!

 

[TOBY458]

Come on Toby! That’s one you haven’t bought and sold! I think you need one for that upcoming DG hunt! As long as you don’t sell it the week before you fly out!

My Heym 404 is on the way! No 400 needed!

 

[Newboomer]

Second on the 404. Got 'em all beat.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Interesting debate? But he who finds a .465 h and h caliber in ANY rifle, wins! Ha! Ha! Ha!

 

[Pheroze]

Time to put up the bat signal: @zephyr

But Craig Boddington likes the 400

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/2/27/not-a-question-of-need-the-400-hh-magnum/



In all honesty I believe H&H have done a great job building on the 375 case. On paper I doubt it has anything over any similar loading, but I do like the case design. Like the Taylor, it doesn't push the bullet as fast as the RM or Rigby, but, at the distances it's used, it doesn't have any more than it needs either.

For PG there are 300gr, 320gr, 350gr and 370gr options. I think it is more flexible and efficient case than the 404 The case design is slimmer too.

And, it's not ugly. It's got that nostalgic look

 

[fourfive8]

First, comparing Lee data to CEB data is apples to oranges- as it would be from any two different sources.

This debate has gone back and forth ever since the 400HH was introduced. The same questions have been asked from the beginning about exactly how the HH defies the laws of ballistics. Less case capacity, less powder, lower pressure, higher velocity with less recoil all with a slightly smaller diameter bullet..... oooook?

I guess if I were trying to sell these, I'd tend to cherry pick data sources and embellish the attributes also then shmooze C.B. a little for good measure

 

[Pheroze]

First, comparing Lee data to CEB data is apples to oranges- as it would be from any two different sources.

I agree. But the CEB data was for their solid, which I would have thought would have higher pressure. Maybe the drive bands help there?

It is a nice slim case. I actually think the neck it ridiculously long. They probably could have gotten more out of it if they shortened the neck by about a foot. But, it comes back to "why". It's a humble case, it is not trying to be more than it needs to be. And, it has all the design features that have worked for a century. What's not to like?

But, if understated British efficiency isn't your thing, there is always the American way :

 

[crs]

Golly gee whiz! Bouncing around all those .400 cartridges gave me a headache.

Guess that I will just stick with my .405 WCF.

It kills buffalo just fine and I already have an elephant rifle.

==================================
And Pheroze, are you related to RIP?

 

[CoElkHunter]

.400 Whelen? Keep necking up a .30-06 case to .35 and then .400 (.411 diameter bullet). Doesn’t have the punch of the .400 h and h or .416RM, but if one has lots of ‘06 brass laying around, why not? I love the design of the .400 h and h cartridge, but like many of the “one off” designed cartridges, PLENTIFUL, INEXPENSIVE brass and/or reloading dies can be difficult to procure? One then must build, to some extent, a custom rifle for the cartridge? BUT, if one isn’t in a hurry and shops around, it still can be done for a reasonable cost.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I agree. But the CEB data was for their solid, which I would have thought would have higher pressure. Maybe the drive bands help there?

It is a nice slim case. I actually think the neck it ridiculously long. They probably could have gotten more out of it if they shortened the neck by about a foot. But, it comes back to "why". It's a humble case, it is not trying to be more than it needs to be. And, it has all the design features that have worked for a century. What's not to like?

View attachment 325188

But, if understated British efficiency isn't your thing, there is always the American way :

View attachment 325189

Wow! I have read about the Browning BAR being converted to .458WM, but the Garand! Very cool! Don’t let Toby458 see this, he’ll want one! As far as recoil, the Garand weighs more than my CZ and being semi-auto I bet the recoil isn’t that atrocious?

 

[CoElkHunter]

I agree. But the CEB data was for their solid, which I would have thought would have higher pressure. Maybe the drive bands help there?

It is a nice slim case. I actually think the neck it ridiculously long. They probably could have gotten more out of it if they shortened the neck by about a foot. But, it comes back to "why". It's a humble case, it is not trying to be more than it needs to be. And, it has all the design features that have worked for a century. What's not to like?

View attachment 325188

But, if understated British efficiency isn't your thing, there is always the American way :

View attachment 325189

Golly gee whiz! Bouncing around all those .400 cartridges gave me a headache.

Guess that I will just stick with my .405 WCF.

It kills buffalo just fine and I already have an elephant rifle.

==================================
And Pheroze, are you related to RIP?

Yeah, but can you put the .405WCF in a Garand! Ha! Ha! Ha!

 

[Bullthrower338]

The 400 definitely has sex appeal and I’ve got to have a M1 458 now!

 

[CoElkHunter]

The 400 definitely has sex appeal and I’ve got to have a M1 458 now!

+1! I have a Garand with an almost shot out barrel and disinigrating mahogany stock. I’ll call AHR or Triple River Gunsmithing and see if they can convert it to .458WM ASAP! I’ll use it on my next elk hunt or for wild Texas Gaur. BTW, I’ll bet the magazine holds a bunch of .458s! Thanks Pheroze!