Why all the hate for CBL (Captive-Bred Lion) Hunting?

Sabre

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I have not hunted African Lion, captive or otherwise. As a person who hasn't done either version, I am trying to understand why this version of captive bred animal hunt draws such disdain from many members on the site who seem otherwise relatively unbothered by other species being bred for hunting.

I know some members seem opposed to all versions of ranches/farms for hunting and only prefer free range wild animals, which I understand their position. But even with that, it seems that CBL hunts seem to draw a lot more heat. So I would assume there must be something different about the style of hunt or the practice that some members are more opposed to that I don't know about, that makes them so much worse in your eyes than Plains Game hunting on a ranch in South Africa.

Please help me to understand why CBL hunts are so much worse to you than PG preserve hunts.
Thanks
 
IMO, lions deserve to be completely free range and wild to be a true trophy.

If someone want to kill a CBL lion, it's fine by me, but I have no interest in taking one.



"Ethics" is up to the hunter.

We all have to draw our own lines now.

I don't want to hunt any African game in Texas, but I would, if someone else was paying the bill.



I also don't care to hunt "Dangerous Game", if there is no danger.

"Sniping" an elephant from 200M, holds no interest for me.



To each, his own, as far as I am concerned.

We all make our on "ethics."
 
I know how I feel (not opposed, if my parameters are met).

This is possibly the most worthy topic of the 'eating popcorn' emoji on this site, right after the do-all nature of the .243 Winchester.
 
:A Popcorn::V Sword Fight:
 
Here we go again...

:A Popcorn:
 
Should have used the search function for this one lol plenty of reading material on here already
 
CBLs are still plenty dangerous from people I have spoken to that have hunted them. (They were bowhunting)


Would love to see someone try the Masai spear hunt of a lion and CBL would give the best opportunity.

Since it is a lightning rod for Anti’s it’s a much more touchy subject.

I guess Plains game is much more analogous to raising domestic animals, and both are viewed as a source of meat/protein that it’s more acceptable.

CBL may be seen as mere bloodsport (which it is) and pretty much an “easy” shoot, especially with a rifle that there is no real accomplishment other than earning the money to pay for it.

Who knows, I don’t have a problem with those who do it though.

But I can tell you hunting a wild lioness in Zimbabwe was extremely difficult and exciting
 
wings-beat-1.jpg
 
If I wanted to collect BIG 5, CBL lion would be considered, because it is the only lion I could afford.
But I am not after BIG 5.

I have number of trophies at home.
I am hoping one day to tell the story about each of them to my grandchildren sitting on my knee, of how it was to hunt Africa when granpa was hunting.
I dont see myself telling a story of CBL hunt to my grandchildren.

Apart from that: I dont have any problem for anybody to go hunt CBL. For many blue collar hunters CBL hunt is the only possibility. Wild lion is too expensive starting from 40k, upwards. This is not normal price in my opinion.

One thing to make clear:
(Allegedly) CBL lion has no conservation value.
But I disagree.
CBL lion when released will start hunting prey when he feels hungry.
But there is a law in RSA that bans CBL lions to be released into the wild.
So, the status of CBL not being of conservation value is artificial, and man made.

Historically there is a record of man raised lions successfully released in the wild.
There is a problem of new lion (raised, or born wild) to be accepted in a lion pride, so it is not easy,it is challenging, but they can repopulate the wilderness.
So, example of raised lions released in wild - first is lioness Elsa, (Book "Born free" by Joy Adamson. And there are other examples, need to search)

Example of lion reintroduction: South African lions released in Mozambique, by Mark Haldane.
Reintroduction is success, they split in two prides if I am not mistaken. I was certain earlier that these lions being from south Africa are CBL, but I was wrong, indeed they were wild and then relocated. (search on google, you will find). But release is possible, and proves new prides can be formed.

So, most animal rights movement groups do not recognize that facts, they made world wide drama in media, and public reacts divided on the issue.
Also, there are thousands of CBL lions in South Africa, and those animal rights groups never explained what they want to do with them, if they manage to pass the law to ban CBL hunting practices.
 
Last edited:
I hope, I can refrain from any further comments regarding CBL's...
 
I’m sure this will turn into an interesting thread again. I strongly oppose CBL. You compared CBL to other game animals farmed for hunting but I don’t see comparison. All other PG and buffalo raised for hunting industry are primarily introduced to supplement or start self sustaining populations on fenced properties. Some is used for put and take hunting but the majority has at least some contribution to conservation through hunting. A CBL lion is raised as commercial livestock in unnatural conditions its entire life until it’s released for the harvesting event. The lowest legal requirement is 72 hour release, SAPA standards are 7 days, PHASA is supposedly 28 days but there is no real verification. Regardless of 72 hours or 28 days it’s pure put and take hunting with no intentions of creating a self sustaining population. There is always an effort to make this a debate about high fences instead of a put and take practice. Wild managed lions are lions living inside a high fence farm/reserve but living a wild existence inside the fence. They fight, breed, hunt, form prides like wild lions. Nearly no CBL lions are used for this because the land isn’t there in South Africa that can support lions prides and many land owners aren’t willing to take the financial loss for the game they kill. Lions are declining in the rest of Africa because of habitat loss but all areas that can support lions generally do already. They are not in danger of extinction like rhinos to justify farming to restock wild areas. CBL is also merged with the cub petting industry and Asian lion bone trade which puts CBL shooting by hunters under more of a spotlight. CBL shooting is a farming practices disguised and defended as hunting. The cheaper it got the more supporters it gained. If you look at older threads when the practice was expensive it was a much more civil and logical discussion. The more recent threads once trophy exports stopped and price dramatically fell the discussion changed a lot. The primary justification and defense of hunting in Africa is sustainable quotas give value to the wildlife and allow populations to grow. CBL/Put and Take hunting is contrary to that message and damages the reputation of hunters. It devalues wild lions and gives no incentive for landowners to create self sustaining managed lion populations on farms when they can’t compete with the price of a CBL to justify what lions kill and eat.

This video has been used by CBL supporters in past. I don’t think very many have actually watched it. He’s says there is possibility of using CBL lions to reintroduce into the wild but it hasn’t been done. He also discusses Big 5 reserves in South Africa uses contraceptive measures to keep their wild managed lion numbers in check because there isn’t anywhere to send them.

Here’s how CBL lions are raised prior to release for the shooting event. I think many would have a different opinion of CBL if they picked up and transported their lion to the hunting area before their hunt.
 
Should have used the search function for this one lol plenty of reading material on here already

I disagree with you. I did search, although, admittedly I could have missed something because you can phrase this many different ways. But there are a handful of threads regarding CBL hunting, which of course frequently turn into people saying they hate it, or some saying they don't mind it.

But I didn't see anything specifically asking why people who oppose it are opposed to it much more than other game animals.

But, I suppose I should have just asked a completely novel topic no one has seen before, like "what's the best cartridge for my next safari" :D
 
I’m sure this will turn into an interesting thread again. I strongly oppose CBL. You compared CBL to other game animals farmed for hunting but I don’t see comparison. All other PG and buffalo raised for hunting industry are primarily introduced to supplement or start self sustaining populations on fenced properties. Some is used for put and take hunting but the majority has at least some contribution to conservation through hunting. A CBL lion is raised as commercial livestock in unnatural conditions its entire life until it’s released for the harvesting event. The lowest legal requirement is 72 hour release, SAPA standards are 7 days, PHASA is supposedly 28 days but there is no real verification. Regardless of 72 hours or 28 days it’s pure put and take hunting with no intentions of creating a self sustaining population. There is always an effort to make this a debate about high fences instead of a put and take practice. Wild managed lions are lions living inside a high fence farm/reserve but living a wild existence inside the fence. They fight, breed, hunt, form prides like wild lions. Nearly no CBL lions are used for this because the land isn’t there in South Africa that can support lions prides and many land owners aren’t willing to take the financial loss for the game they kill. Lions are declining in the rest of Africa because of habitat loss but all areas that can support lions generally do already. They are not in danger of extinction like rhinos to justify farming to restock wild areas. CBL is also merged with the cub petting industry and Asian lion bone trade which puts CBL shooting by hunters under more of a spotlight. CBL shooting is a farming practices disguised and defended as hunting. The cheaper it got the more supporters it gained. If you look at older threads when the practice was expensive it was a much more civil and logical discussion. The more recent threads once trophy exports stopped and price dramatically fell the discussion changed a lot. The primary justification and defense of hunting in Africa is sustainable quotas give value to the wildlife and allow populations to grow. CBL/Put and Take hunting is contrary to that message and damages the reputation of hunters. It devalues wild lions and gives no incentive for landowners to create self sustaining managed lion populations on farms when they can’t compete with the price of a CBL to justify what lions kill and eat.

This video has been used by CBL supporters in past. I don’t think very many have actually watched it. He’s says there is possibility of using CBL lions to reintroduce into the wild but it hasn’t been done. He also discusses Big 5 reserves in South Africa uses contraceptive measures to keep their wild managed lion numbers in check because there isn’t anywhere to send them.

Here’s how CBL lions are raised prior to release for the shooting event. I think many would have a different opinion of CBL if they picked up and transported their lion to the hunting area before their hunt.


I was about 90% sure you would respond to this thread, and I was interested in what you had to say because you have been a strong proponent of hunting free range on many threads in the past.

I anticipated your statements were going to be more about it just not being a free range hunt. However, what you stated is basically the best argument I could come up with in my mind against CBL hunting when I was ruminating on it in the past.

One thing I struggle with, that I see in the hunting world, is costs of many hunts getting so far out of the reach of the average person, that a large percentage of hunts are getting so expensive average people can't even aspire to do them "one day" or as a "bucket list" hunt. So, admittedly, with little knowledge, I saw CBL hunts as an option for more people to still achieve their dreams. Regardless of if that type of hunting was for me or not.

Your arguments were compelling and very worth the read, thank you. I haven't had a chance to watch the videos you posted yet, but I will get to them.
 
One thing I struggle with, that I see in the hunting world, is costs of many hunts getting so far out of the reach of the average person, that a large percentage of hunts are getting so expensive average people can't even aspire to do them "one day" or as a "bucket list" hunt.
This is the key issue.
Moreover "the average" hunter here actually refers to people of western hemisphere (Some European countries - not all, and USA) and the other parts of the World much less.
Once wild lion hunting is perceived as blood sport for rich westerners, regulations will grow eventually to total ban, or at least to total "export" ban.

Speaking from my perspective, I could envision myself hunting a non exportable wild lion sometime in the distant future, as the trophy collection is not my first priority, after I have already collected many other trophies at home. I would consider good photo with wild old scarred lion a worthy trophy in this case.
But this does not apply for many hunters.
 
weve been over this before

cbl lions have been used to start self sustaining populations, in fact after 2-3 years they were doing so well they had to bring in a new cbl male and remove some of the population as it was getting too big for the reserve
the guy that wrote the book did a whole study on the fact (PL Booyens) from university of the free state
the lions were successful from day 1, they hunted, bred and formed social groups, just like wild lions
 
weve been over this before

cbl lions have been used to start self sustaining populations, in fact after 2-3 years they were doing so well they had to bring in a new cbl male and remove some of the population as it was getting too big for the reserve
the guy that wrote the book did a whole study on the fact (PL Booyens) from university of the free state
the lions were successful from day 1, they hunted, bred and formed social groups, just like wild lions
How many lions do you have on your farm? I’ll safely guess zero. A case study that says a CBL can create wild/wild managed populations doesn’t mean there is any demand or will to do so. The wild areas that can hold wild lions generally already do and in some cases exceed carrying capacity. A take away I took from the Paul Booyens video you previously posted is Big 5 reserves using contraceptive measures to control their lions numbers because they’ve reached carrying capacity.
 
yes correct zero
not many people want lions or elephant for that matter on private reserves, they just eat too much and are very destructive

the point is they can create wild populations and do have a conservation value, they can be used to introduce new populations in national parks etc where numbers are dwindling, but nat con and our government(who have been infiltrated and influenced by greenies) wont do it, because then they admit their faults and in turn stimulate a demand to CBL, which would be against the belief of the greenies.

like it or dont like it, i dont care, but these are facts
 
Respectfully I doubt the theory that all areas that can sustain wild lions, already have wild lion population, and other areas are just habitat loss.
The former natural lion range is just too big. Habitat loss is one factor, but loss in numbers of prey species, poaching and historical uncontrolled hunting is another thing, and I am pretty sure there are places where lions can be reintroduced. The former range area is just too big to be defined as habitat loss.


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The cheaper it got the more supporters it gained.
Something that I have learnt is, the lower the price, the more flexible people's perception of ethics become.
 

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