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45-70 dangerous game?
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Now that’s sectional density!
MauserDuff, Correct!
The 458 diameter bullet is 10% larger diamete than to 410 grain 450-400 NE bullet. In the 2000fps range on big dangerous game the bigger diameter is better.
The good old 450-400 NE returned to popularity with Hornady bullets and similar being promoted along with it. These types of bullets are mediocre and not near the top of the range DG bullets available these days. The 400 grain CEB Raptor bullet of or the 400 grain North Fork expanding bullet at 2000 fps, would be excellent for the 45-70 Lever, or Single-shot IMO.
The 450-400 NE has gotten a lot of love in the last few years, I'm just saying that the 45-70 when well loaded is just a tad better for cape buffalo.
On Monday I am on a flight to Africa where I have 6 cape buffalo booked. I am taking my 577 NE single shot with 700 grain Peregrine Bushmaster bullets.
Me happy!
Brian
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Bigger diameter IS NOT better on DG if it doesn’t penetrate! Do you just make this stuff up?
F. Vaccaro
AH fanatic
As I said, my dog isn't in this fight, I'm not going to shoot a cape buff with any rifle at this stage. Just mentioning the .45-70 may be more powerful than some believe in a strong rifle. Not going to argue about DG using it.
It is comforting in the dark timber after elk where there is the possibility of bumping a grizz!
michael458
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The World has changed dramatically over the last 20 years........... in fact, it can really be dropped to around 15 years in all reality......... The days of Sectional Density being a major factor in depth of penetration are long gone. The only time that Sectional Density can be considered a factor at all, is if ALL OTHER FACTORS ARE EQUAL............
On Page 3 of this very thread we address Sectional Density Concerning Solid Projectiles, we spoke about the 8 Known, Absolute Factors of Solid Terminal Performance, we pointed out how out of 8 Factors, Sectional Density was Dead Last #8 of determining Factors of Solid Penetration...... We showed the greatest Example of that as well. Go Back and Review Page 3.......Really I would think that most are intelligent enough to do so, without it having to be completely posted here once again? Of course, some missed it on Page 3, or possibly ......... Dismissed it?
Then again, on this very same thread, Page 8, we fully addressed the discussion of Sectional Density concerning Expanding and Trauma Inflicting Bullets, and we spoke extensively concerning "Terminal Sectional Density", we showed examples of Bullets and their Terminal Sectional Density, we showed examples of how this works, we showed examples of modern bullets of much lesser weight and sectional density out performs older more conventional expanding bullets, at length....... proven in the field and on the range, many many many times over. But again, some missed the Memo, or "Dismissed" the Memo in favor of Conventional Beliefs, that no longer hold true. Please review once again.
Yes, I know all about what "Some" say and write about Sectional Density, and I have even had discussions with some of those same folks..... at the time, they Looked at me like I was some sort of Alien Creature, but yet had no evidence to the contrary, just outdated "Conventional Wisdom" from 100 years of indoctrination.
Believe me, I am a "Penetration Freak", more is better always in my book. Exits are SUCCESS in my book. Straight line performance is top end, and penetration is everything!
Caliber and Penetration is required for large thick skinned dangerous game. Rat calibers are damn near useless when trying to impress buffalo. I know this as a fact. In 2012 I took my own 9.3 B&M on a 5 day shooting exercise in South Africa, working with mostly a 200 gr Raptor at that time, 2900 fps. I was impressed with its performance for a medium caliber, animals such as oryx and wildebeest were DRT 50% of the time, the remaining 50% they ran for 20-30 steps and dropped stone cold. Zebra would always run sometimes a 100 yards before dropping stone cold. Lesser animals were all DRT. Just after this I took that same 9.3 to Australia to do some buffalo shooting. The Performance was DISMAL to say the least. After about 10 buffalo I put it to the side, Oh it killed the hell out of them, but the buffalo did not pay much attention to taking a hit. I used larger 250 gr Raptors, 200 Raptors, 280 Solids, and other super bullets, but I could not make the 9.3 a larger caliber regardless of bullets used. And BTW, all bullets exited, even the 200 Raptors, none were recovered.........
On this same trip I had both Sons along for the first real outings of the 50 B&M Super Short and the 475 B&M Super Short......... Bullets? In the 50 B&M Super Short my Son Matthew was shooting 375 gr CEB #13 Solids at 2170 fps and a 335 CEB Raptor at 2250 fps, 375 North Fork Solids at 2150 fps and 375 North Fork Expanding CPS at 2200 fps. He was slamming buffalo to the dirt with this little gun, which weighs in at 6.25 lbs, 16.25 inch barrel, and 36 inches overall length. Our Friend Paul Truccolo was present, along with our close Friend Sam Rose, Sam was using his 500 NE and Paul his own 500 MDM. Both of these very experienced gentlemen made the same comment, the 50 Super Short was just as effective as 500 NE. And it was. Now, honestly, before this, I would not have recommended these cartridges or rifles for this sort of work, But I was dead wrong, not only were they adequate, they exceeded Adequate when using new Bullet Tech..........
375 North Fork Expanding CPS...... Matthew fired two of these in the big buffalo above, angle shot, so not full broadside, both were recovered. His third round fired, was one of the new design North Fork Solids at 375 gr, little more angle, but it exited forward of the far shoulder.
Non Terminal Sectional Density of a 375 gr .500 caliber bullet is .214, and of course Terminal Sectional Density is less, I have not measured these bullets and don't have a Terminal SD. But those that think SD is important would say .214 was not adequate....... I beg to differ. SD of the Solid 375 would be the same, both before and Terminal........ hmmmm......
My other Son Mark David also slammed his share of buffalo as well. He was shooting his 475 B&M Super Short with 350 gr CEB #13 Solids at 2214 fps, 320 CEB Raptors at 2308 fps, 375 North Fork Expanding CPS at 2150 fps. He took this buffalo with 320 Raptors..... not sure about followup solids on this one....... The base Raptor was recovered far side........
.474 caliber 320 Raptor starts with an SD of .203......... Terminal? I have not sorted that out, but much less......... reaches far side of buffalo and blows the heart to pieces........ I have had 500 gr Swift A Frames not do any more than that....... in 458 Lott......... So SD?
In 2014 I took Mark David along to Africa where he showed off his skills with his 475 B&M Super Short, shooting those same bullets he used in Australia........... Same story with this buffalo, one 320 Raptor through the heart, and a followup 350 CEB Solid, this buffalo took exactly 5 steps and was DRT.............
They took this hippo out of the water mind you, Mark laced it full of .474 caliber holes with the 350 gr CEB Solids, hippo did not survive the affair........ as you see. Mark Davids Sister is rather pleased with the performance as well.... LOL
There were some elephants causing some issues in the area, and Mark was fortunate enough to be able to take one to help solve the issues............ I was not expecting trouble myself, but played backup thinking I might get to shoot a little as well......... This elephant came by at 10 steps, presented a perfect side brain shot, which Mark excuted perfectly, rear end drop followed by the front, classic shot...... I did not fire a round, damn! Mark gave another solid through the chest. Both of these exited and were not recovered............. This is a 350 gr .474 caliber CEB Solid Sectional Density of .223.................
Please go back, review pages 3 and pages 8 of this same thread for more on "Sectional Density"...
On Page 3 of this very thread we address Sectional Density Concerning Solid Projectiles, we spoke about the 8 Known, Absolute Factors of Solid Terminal Performance, we pointed out how out of 8 Factors, Sectional Density was Dead Last #8 of determining Factors of Solid Penetration...... We showed the greatest Example of that as well. Go Back and Review Page 3.......Really I would think that most are intelligent enough to do so, without it having to be completely posted here once again? Of course, some missed it on Page 3, or possibly ......... Dismissed it?
Then again, on this very same thread, Page 8, we fully addressed the discussion of Sectional Density concerning Expanding and Trauma Inflicting Bullets, and we spoke extensively concerning "Terminal Sectional Density", we showed examples of Bullets and their Terminal Sectional Density, we showed examples of how this works, we showed examples of modern bullets of much lesser weight and sectional density out performs older more conventional expanding bullets, at length....... proven in the field and on the range, many many many times over. But again, some missed the Memo, or "Dismissed" the Memo in favor of Conventional Beliefs, that no longer hold true. Please review once again.
Yes, I know all about what "Some" say and write about Sectional Density, and I have even had discussions with some of those same folks..... at the time, they Looked at me like I was some sort of Alien Creature, but yet had no evidence to the contrary, just outdated "Conventional Wisdom" from 100 years of indoctrination.
Believe me, I am a "Penetration Freak", more is better always in my book. Exits are SUCCESS in my book. Straight line performance is top end, and penetration is everything!
Caliber and Penetration is required for large thick skinned dangerous game. Rat calibers are damn near useless when trying to impress buffalo. I know this as a fact. In 2012 I took my own 9.3 B&M on a 5 day shooting exercise in South Africa, working with mostly a 200 gr Raptor at that time, 2900 fps. I was impressed with its performance for a medium caliber, animals such as oryx and wildebeest were DRT 50% of the time, the remaining 50% they ran for 20-30 steps and dropped stone cold. Zebra would always run sometimes a 100 yards before dropping stone cold. Lesser animals were all DRT. Just after this I took that same 9.3 to Australia to do some buffalo shooting. The Performance was DISMAL to say the least. After about 10 buffalo I put it to the side, Oh it killed the hell out of them, but the buffalo did not pay much attention to taking a hit. I used larger 250 gr Raptors, 200 Raptors, 280 Solids, and other super bullets, but I could not make the 9.3 a larger caliber regardless of bullets used. And BTW, all bullets exited, even the 200 Raptors, none were recovered.........
On this same trip I had both Sons along for the first real outings of the 50 B&M Super Short and the 475 B&M Super Short......... Bullets? In the 50 B&M Super Short my Son Matthew was shooting 375 gr CEB #13 Solids at 2170 fps and a 335 CEB Raptor at 2250 fps, 375 North Fork Solids at 2150 fps and 375 North Fork Expanding CPS at 2200 fps. He was slamming buffalo to the dirt with this little gun, which weighs in at 6.25 lbs, 16.25 inch barrel, and 36 inches overall length. Our Friend Paul Truccolo was present, along with our close Friend Sam Rose, Sam was using his 500 NE and Paul his own 500 MDM. Both of these very experienced gentlemen made the same comment, the 50 Super Short was just as effective as 500 NE. And it was. Now, honestly, before this, I would not have recommended these cartridges or rifles for this sort of work, But I was dead wrong, not only were they adequate, they exceeded Adequate when using new Bullet Tech..........
375 North Fork Expanding CPS...... Matthew fired two of these in the big buffalo above, angle shot, so not full broadside, both were recovered. His third round fired, was one of the new design North Fork Solids at 375 gr, little more angle, but it exited forward of the far shoulder.
Non Terminal Sectional Density of a 375 gr .500 caliber bullet is .214, and of course Terminal Sectional Density is less, I have not measured these bullets and don't have a Terminal SD. But those that think SD is important would say .214 was not adequate....... I beg to differ. SD of the Solid 375 would be the same, both before and Terminal........ hmmmm......
My other Son Mark David also slammed his share of buffalo as well. He was shooting his 475 B&M Super Short with 350 gr CEB #13 Solids at 2214 fps, 320 CEB Raptors at 2308 fps, 375 North Fork Expanding CPS at 2150 fps. He took this buffalo with 320 Raptors..... not sure about followup solids on this one....... The base Raptor was recovered far side........
.474 caliber 320 Raptor starts with an SD of .203......... Terminal? I have not sorted that out, but much less......... reaches far side of buffalo and blows the heart to pieces........ I have had 500 gr Swift A Frames not do any more than that....... in 458 Lott......... So SD?
In 2014 I took Mark David along to Africa where he showed off his skills with his 475 B&M Super Short, shooting those same bullets he used in Australia........... Same story with this buffalo, one 320 Raptor through the heart, and a followup 350 CEB Solid, this buffalo took exactly 5 steps and was DRT.............
They took this hippo out of the water mind you, Mark laced it full of .474 caliber holes with the 350 gr CEB Solids, hippo did not survive the affair........ as you see. Mark Davids Sister is rather pleased with the performance as well.... LOL
There were some elephants causing some issues in the area, and Mark was fortunate enough to be able to take one to help solve the issues............ I was not expecting trouble myself, but played backup thinking I might get to shoot a little as well......... This elephant came by at 10 steps, presented a perfect side brain shot, which Mark excuted perfectly, rear end drop followed by the front, classic shot...... I did not fire a round, damn! Mark gave another solid through the chest. Both of these exited and were not recovered............. This is a 350 gr .474 caliber CEB Solid Sectional Density of .223.................
Please go back, review pages 3 and pages 8 of this same thread for more on "Sectional Density"...
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I’ve reviewed page three but the problem you have in your results are none of the penetration tests are using the same bullets. Take any of those tests you have and use the same bullet with the same media for testing and agin the bullet with the better section density and momentum will win and by a large margin in some.
Also whether it is CED solid, Raptor, or NF Cup they are all solid of some design and not a true expanding bullet! With true expanding bullets SD is going to matter even more.
A 500gr CEB solid in 458 Lott at 2300 is going to crush a 400gr or 325gr CEB solid out of a 45/70 at 2000 in penetration tests! Why? Sectional Density and momentum!
Just because you can drive a certain solid deep enough to kill in a marginal cartridge does not make it a better choice with DG and for Pete’s sake stop the “it’s a larger caliber so it a better killer on game” that @Brian keeps saying! If that were true we all be out their with our .455 Webley’s
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Tundra Tiger
AH legend
I think you and I are closer than some others...
Will it work? Yes.
Is it for everyone? NoPe.
Given my parameters - personal restraint, shot selection/placement, the right bullet - it has worked well for me.
Not your jam... but it is mine.
michael458
AH fanatic
There are 8 Absolute Known Factors for Solid Penetration and are as follows in Order of Importance.....
#1 Meplat Percentage of Caliber
Meplats that attain 65% Meplat of Caliber are terminally stable.... Above 70% Meplat bullets remain stable, however depth of penetration begins to decrease with every step up in meplat size. 70% Meplat or larger does increase trauma to, and destruction of tissue. 70% Meplats start to get difficult to feed, even in Winchester M70s...... From 65% Meplat to 68% Meplat is OPTIMUM for Stability, destruction of tissues, and feed and function in most quality rifles..........
#2 Nose Profile
There are many and varied Nose Profiles of solids on the market today, from the angled Nose Profiles of CEB and North Fork, to the straight nose profile of the older North Forks and GSC, the Barnes/Hornady Profiles (like a RN cut off at the top) to many more... Not all of these are created equal, and some are better performers than others. In recent tests in comparison between the old North Fork Profiles and the Newer North Fork Profiles I was getting 20% deeper penetration with the Newer North Forks than the older, with the same bullet, just difference in Nose Profile is all.... John at North Fork agrees, and in their work there they were getting more along the lines of 25% deeper penetration. One major thing that I noticed here, the stability at the end of penetration was 100% better. In most all tests here the last 2 inches of penetration of the old style North Forks would be unstable. Now this is and was of no consequence at the very end of penetration. The depth of penetration of these older nose profile bullets was always so deep that it had long accomplished its mission before loss of stability right at the very end. This new NOSE PROFILE of North Forks remains DEAD STRAIGHT to the very last of penetration, and always found NOSE FORWARD........
#3 Construction & Material
Construction of a solid is a major part of its ability to penetrate. To deny this is foolish to say the least. Some of our solids out there, lead core, are very very weak in construction and absolutely do not have the ability to bust through heavy bone and reach their intended targets. I have seen and have in hand failures of these bullets from the field..... A shame as well, as some of these bullets are promoted as Dangerous Game Solids, and some of them flatten out like pancakes when hitting heavy dense material. Some FMJ Have steel inserts, while this solves a problem in one area, it creates problems in other areas.... Brass is harder than Copper... No surprise there, but I have busted elephant heads with both copper and brass, and never had one distort, but, these solids were of a very STRONG NOSE PROFILE as well........ So you see, combinations of different factors work together to strengthen or weaken other factors..... A good strong Nose Profile, can overcome some material deficiencies and in the case of copper solids this is extremely important.
#4 Nose Projection
Nose Projection above the top bands was the last factor discovered. There may be more factors, but currently they remain undiscovered at this point in time.... We found that nose projection above the top of the bands of current CNC monolithic bullets is very important to depth of penetration. Some bullets designed to work through lever actin riflers require a SHORT NOSE PROJECTION in front of the bands so that they can be loaded deep enough to work through the actions of these guns... Nose Projection of these same bullets for bolt guns, single shots, and double rifles are longer, from .600 to .700 in front of the top band. The LONGER NOSE PROJECTION solids will penetrate on average 25% deeper than the shorter nose projection. Now, these bullets already have all the other required factors for stability, nose profile, construction and radius, so it is ONLY DEPTH Of penetration that is effected with properly designed bullets.
#5 Radius Edge of Meplat
We found that the radius edge of the meplat made a difference, small, but a difference none the less. A nicely radius edge penetrates about 5% deeper, and has more stability at the end than a sharp edged radius.... No more to go into here, thats it.......
All the Above Factors Deal with Bullet Design........
#6 Velocity
Velocity is a factor, but it also goes hand in hand with Nose Profile and Construction/Material. If we assume that the Meplat is optimum, the nose projection is optimum, and the bullet has a nice radius then velocity becomes a factor in combination with nose profile and construction/materials. Different Nose Profiles react differently with velocity. Some nose profiles at very low velocity cannot maintain stability, but this would be in the extreme, and other factors may come into play with some of this. In essence with some Nose Profiles, added velocity will equate to added depth of penetration, and of course trauma and destruction of tissue. Some nose profiles react better than others, but if properly designed, then all will get some gain from added velocity, UNTIL you reach the point that you get distortion of the meplat by TOO MUCH VELOCITY. Once you begin to distort that meplat, then all sorts of strange things begin to occur. One is depth of penetration will decrease, stability will decrease as well....... Normally you will only get this at extreme velocities at 2700-2800 fps or more, which in our big bore rifles is somewhat extreme.......... Lead core bullets will be effected in a serious manner at extreme velocities, followed by copper, and then brass........ Nose Profile and Construction & Material are very important for Factor #6.........
#7 Barrel Twist Rate
Barrel twist rate really only becomes a factor when Factor #1 is DEFICIENT....... If the meplat of caliber is undersized, less than 65%, then faster twist rates WILL INCREASE the depth of penetration by increasing the stability of terminal penetration. A 65% Meplat of Caliber can stabilize in slower twist rates of 1:18, or even slower...... I have seen 65% Meplat of Caliber stabilize with ZERO TWIST....... I have seen 50% Meplat of Caliber stability increase with faster twist rates, and have documentation to prove it, several times...... If you are using a properly designed Solid, then twist rate becomes less important, and more important if you are not using a proper designed solid. Fast Twist Rates can also increase stability of even RN Solids of decent design, hardly anything can increase stability of a more pointy RN FMJ.......
#8 Sectional Density
Sectional Density will ONLY BE A FACTOR with two bullets that are exactly the same in every other Factor or aspect. Factors #1 and #2 far outweigh Sectional Density in the terminal performance of Solids. We can take a properly designed 458 caliber 325 gr Solid and far out penetrate in depth and stability a poorly designed 550 gr 458 caliber bullet....... My son recently shot a medium sized elephant at 10 yards, perfectly executed side brain shot, with a 350 gr .474 caliber properly designed solid at 2200 fps. This bullet exited the head on the far side and still may be going for all I know. A 350 gr .474 caliber bullet has a sectional density of .223, and I personally would choose this little 350 gr bullet over the Woodleigh 500 gr RN FMJ at .4725 (ones I have here) any and every day for any mission............
These are undeniable facts, and can be proven over and over and over again in all test work, and these factors have been exercised in the field and have proven themselves in the field, many many times over...... These are the 8 Known Factors of Terminal Penetration of Solid Bullets.................
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So you’re agreeing with me lol
michael458
AH fanatic
On Page 3, in that same post, I listed Factor #8 addressing Sectional Density concerned with Solids, as the last Factor in Terminal Penetration, perhaps you missed that.
I have, we have, tested literally 1000s of different solids here over the years. We have tested many times the same or similar solids. In many calibers and cartridges.
This is where Sectional Density has relevancy, as stated in Factor #8 Clearly.......... This is but one example of many examples in many calibers/cartridges.............
Of course, who do you think you are addressing? Nothing was ever stated otherwise. But, in your statement you are totally neglecting two other factors............Nose Projection, Velocity, and SD play a part in this statement, not just SD alone.
Nose Projection is measured above the top band. The Lever Solids are required to have a short Nose Projection so they can be seated deep enough to work through the action of various lever guns. I am sure you do not understand how this effects terminal penetration of a solid, so let me explain as simple as I can. The Shorter Nose Projection comes along with having a longer base. Flat Nose Solids create a bubble in "Aqueous" tissue or test medium, this allows them to penetrate deeper basically giving almost a free ride instead of having to crush their way through tissue/test medium. The short nose and longer base, the bubble is not created far enough away from the base of the bullet to bypass it, the bubble collapses on the rear of the base causing drag, slowing the bullet down. The LONGER Nose Projection "Projects the bubble out as well, but with the shorter base the bubble collapses behind the bullet base, therefore no drag.
Nose Projection wins over velocity with the shorter nose projection bullets. Regardless of velocity with these depth of penetration is not increased.
In the above examples You see Nose Projection, and Sectional Density at work....... But of course, you had to have all other factors equal to understand this, Meplat Size, Nose Profile, Construction and Material, Radius Edge. Velocity, twist rate not a factor in the above.
I have doubts that you have any experience in the field with Raptors, Gen 1 Copper Bullets such as the Hammers, or Lehighs, NF Expanding CPS or Lehigh Extremes. All of these bullets Operate completely different from a Conventional Expanding Bullet. All of them cause massive amounts of trauma inflicted, massive tissue damage, all of them far more than any conventional Expanding Bullet. They all penetrate deeper than a conventional expanding bullet. The only Sectional Density that has any bearing at all is "Terminal SD", after the bullet begins to penetrate tissue. I believe explained completely on Page 8 of this thread. These sort of bullets make it possible for the 45/70 cartridge to be enhanced enough to get the job done in the hands of a proficient shooter. Something not available 15+ years ago.
Also below, my statement on Page 3..... if one cares to review ........
"Is the 45/70 the Ideal Buffalo Cartridge? Of course not, but that does not mean it is totally inadequate by any stretch. Choose the proper bullets that are available today, and this will enhance your 45/70 to levels never heard of before, and change it into a totally different cartridge than what is written in "The Books" years ago........... And, with this in mind, you can also enhance what you would consider buffalo capable cartridges as well. But what you cannot do, even with the very best of Bullet Tech, is turn a .375 anything into a .458 +.......... this miracle has not been achieved in my lifetime, and likely to never be achieved."
I will be the first to tell you, that 45/70 is not and never will be equal to 458 Winchester ++......this is where Caliber + Velocity + Bullet Tech will exceed what a 45/70 can do. I really have not seen anyone on the thread make such claims. But if you drop below .458 caliber to something stupid like 375 for buffalo, I think I rather have a Marlin full of CEB Solids than any .375 anything......... 4-5 fast rounds of .458 caliber solids burning 458 caliber holes will get somethings attention I promise you!
Here is what was asked by @Flbt in the very first post;
Any thoughts on its use on the big bears and buffalo up?
I have used it on hogs no problem I would use it on black bear.
But o am not sure about anything bigger.
I think that is exactly what we have addressed in the thread and why and how..........
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