2nd Shot Expert Advice Please!

[DLSJR]

I’m just glad this happened nearly 2 months before your hunt and not just a few days before. And that you weren’t injured more than happened.

 

[Scott CWO]

I’m just glad this happened nearly 2 months before your hunt and not just a few days before. And that you weren’t injured more than happened.

Yes for sure!

I just figured out the problem. I went to the Talley website and learned this:

“Not sure if you have older Dakota factory bases? The slot where the scope ring sets down in should measure .750″ front to rear.”

Seems that Talley made bases and rings for Dakota years ago that are slightly different than the current models. I had never heard this and put the newer rings on the older bases! They went on and tightened down but not enough to withstand repeated recoil. I guess I might have a ding on my forehead for a few weeks due to this! Oh well, I’m just glad I figured it out now!

 

[Altitude sickness]

What a shame Dakota didn’t add the mount slot for mount indexing and additional hold.

 

[Berettaco]

Really glad you figured that out. It’s a terrible thing to not have trust in your rifle setup, especially a nice rifle like that traveler.
Bonus - it’s a cheap and easy fix

 

[uplander01]

Dakota bases and standard Talley rings don’t match up perfectly. Dakota rings are shorter front to back, which when using talleys can lead to thinking you have the scope rings properly seated on the bases, but they’re not. That would also lead to the bent screw.

 

[uplander01]

I typed that reply before I read second page,…I would check the scope for straightness, tubes can bend under such a scenario.

 

[Challer]

The quick release lever appears bent. That just is not right. I’d probably replace these Talley bases

 

[Philip Glass]

I am so sorry this happened Scott. There are several points here that make me cringe. First the scope, I'm sure you've seen my video, but it will work. Second QD rings that I quit using years ago due to scopes getting off. I think maybe we've just all read too many story books because I've never heard of anyone needing to take one off. After hearing of you being injured by one I really don't want them! Finally the custom ammo that seemed to be pushing the limits must have been part of the problem. I've had clients on safari with me have an issue with that company.

 

[AZDAVE]

Scott glad you figured pout the problem. Like @Philip Glass I gave up on QR rings a number of years ago. (still have a couple old sets on the shelf) I would get the rings sorted and then (since you don't reload) would get a box of federal or barnes and shoot for zero.

 

[roklok]

So glad you figured it out !! That is a shame the Talley bases and rings are different, who would have thought ? As far as having quick detach rings ? I am a safari newbie having a grand total of one African hunt under my belt, but I am really glad I had quick detach rings, Warne in my case, on my .375 on that hunt. I actually removed my scope on two occasions, then later made a good shot on a wildebeast at 300ish yards, proving the zero repeatability. I also have quick detach rings on my other .375 I use for hunting here in Alaska, it also gets removed frequently as extended periods of rainy foggy weather is not conducive to scope use when moose or bear hunting in the willows.

 

[Goat416]

Yes for sure!

I just figured out the problem. I went to the Talley website and learned this:

“Not sure if you have older Dakota factory bases? The slot where the scope ring sets down in should measure .750″ front to rear.”

Seems that Talley made bases and rings for Dakota years ago that are slightly different than the current models. I had never heard this and put the newer rings on the older bases! They went on and tightened down but not enough to withstand repeated recoil. I guess I might have a ding on my forehead for a few weeks due to this! Oh well, I’m just glad I figured it out now!

After making the adjustment to the ring base, I didn’t have any issues with my scope when firing the rifle. It was a fairly simple fix.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I think it depends on the QD rings manufacturer. I have Warne QD rings on both my 30-06 and 404. The bases are different. 404 actually has the cheaper base ($10 discontinued Weaver 1-piece) but better than the other more expensive base on 06. The difference being the 404 base for 98 Mauser has only two very narrow slots. This base was originally designed for Weaver "detachable" (permanent) rings with round locking screw. Thus the slots in base are round troughs and very narrow. I rounded the square edges of Warne locking screws and they now fit VERY snuggly on the Weaver base even before the locking screw is tightened. The base on my Springfield 03A3 is CCPO USA (or some such acronym). It's a semi rail with cutout for magazine loading. This one has three slots ahead of the cutout and two behind. The slots are actually quite wide so there is potential to reattach the scope in a slightly different spot on the base. If the top surface of base was EXACTLY parallel to the bore it wouldn't make any difference where the scope is reattached on the rail. But that would require very exact machining of the receiver (not a top priority during WWII production of military rifles) and perfect alignment of screw holes for attaching the base. This setup on my 03A3 is nonetheless very accurate retaining zero ... IF I remember to reattach the scope the same way every time: i.e. with scope pushed forward in the slots as it is tightened down. Not an issue with 404 Mauser because there is no slop in the slots. Scope rings drop into the same tight slots every time.

The bent locking screw was undoubtedly caused by over tightening when the scope and rings were not properly seated on the base. This would account for the second round being so far off from first one. One of the rings jumped it's slot (or jumped into its slot). However, I don't think this explains why you got clobbered with the scope on SECOND shot. If the scope didn't fly off the gun and hit you in the face, then it was still in the same place on the rifle, generally speaking. It appears to me that you just happened to have two different issues occurring at the same time. There is something wrong with that ammo. Pull the bullets and start over. And forget the Leatherman! These rings are not designed for that. Not necessary.

 

[Green Chile]

I didn't read all of the replies but my first call would be to Hendershots. I think they would want to know. The left case looks different to me. The load was not the same...no way it would shoot all the way up like that without something being a lot different. It's not that big of a gun to break a good scope mount in 2 shots. You're used to Talleys...you're an experienced shooter...somethings not right with ammo...and I use and like Hendershots.

 

[roklok]

I don't believe the ammo had anything to do with this incident. I still think the left primer shows signs of a bit more pressure (flattened more than one on right), but not enough to cause any problems. It seems to me the mystery has been answered by Talley, who made bases and rings to different specs which I would have never suspected.

 

[375Fox]

I’m glad you got your answer, but I just can’t help thinking reading this thread how much I’d hate to shoot this rifle the next time at the range. It’s difficult forgetting getting scoped when squeezing the trigger, especially a serious case like this.

 

[Scott CWO]

Dakota bases and standard Talley rings don’t match up perfectly. Dakota rings are shorter front to back, which when using talleys can lead to thinking you have the scope rings properly seated on the bases, but they’re not. That would also lead to the bent screw.

Yes, this is exactly what happened. During the first shot, the scope rings moved slightly on the base but didn’t come off and I did not notice it. Then on the second shot, the screw got bent because the rings weren’t seated anymore on the base and the scope flew off and hit me. The ammo is fine.

 

[Scott CWO]

The quick release lever appears bent. That just is not right. I’d probably replace these Talley bases

The lever is not bent but the screw that goes through the lever is bent and makes it look like the lever is bent.

 

[Scott CWO]

I am so sorry this happened Scott. There are several points here that make me cringe. First the scope, I'm sure you've seen my video, but it will work. Second QD rings that I quit using years ago due to scopes getting off. I think maybe we've just all read too many story books because I've never heard of anyone needing to take one off. After hearing of you being injured by one I really don't want them! Finally the custom ammo that seemed to be pushing the limits must have been part of the problem. I've had clients on safari with me have an issue with that company.

Experiences vary. I’ve taken scopes off several times without problems and I want the flexibility to change scopes/loads.

The Hendershot ammo is not loaded real hot. The pressures and velocities are not at the top. My only concern was that one cartridge was overloaded but I found out tat I had the wrong rings. This is my first Dakota and I had no idea that try had Talley make rings and bases two different sizes/ways. Live and learn!

 

[Scott CWO]

I think it depends on the QD rings manufacturer. I have Warne QD rings on both my 30-06 and 404. The bases are different. 404 actually has the cheaper base ($10 discontinued Weaver 1-piece) but better than the other more expensive base on 06. The difference being the 404 base for 98 Mauser has only two very narrow slots. This base was originally designed for Weaver "detachable" (permanent) rings with round locking screw. Thus the slots in base are round troughs and very narrow. I rounded the square edges of Warne locking screws and they now fit VERY snuggly on the Weaver base even before the locking screw is tightened. The base on my Springfield 03A3 is CCPO USA (or some such acronym). It's a semi rail with cutout for magazine loading. This one has three slots ahead of the cutout and two behind. The slots are actually quite wide so there is potential to reattach the scope in a slightly different spot on the base. If the top surface of base was EXACTLY parallel to the bore it wouldn't make any difference where the scope is reattached on the rail. But that would require very exact machining of the receiver (not a top priority during WWII production of military rifles) and perfect alignment of screw holes for attaching the base. This setup on my 03A3 is nonetheless very accurate retaining zero ... IF I remember to reattach the scope the same way every time: i.e. with scope pushed forward in the slots as it is tightened down. Not an issue with 404 Mauser because there is no slop in the slots. Scope rings drop into the same tight slots every time.

The bent locking screw was undoubtedly caused by over tightening when the scope and rings were not properly seated on the base. This would account for the second round being so far off from first one. One of the rings jumped it's slot (or jumped into its slot). However, I don't think this explains why you got clobbered with the scope on SECOND shot. If the scope didn't fly off the gun and hit you in the face, then it was still in the same place on the rifle, generally speaking. It appears to me that you just happened to have two different issues occurring at the same time. There is something wrong with that ammo. Pull the bullets and start over. And forget the Leatherman! These rings are not designed for that. Not necessary.

No, the bent screw was caused by the rings not being the correct set for the bases so then it bent from recoil.

The ammo is fine.

 

[Scott CWO]

I don't believe the ammo had anything to do with this incident. I still think the left primer shows signs of a bit more pressure (flattened more than one on right), but not enough to cause any problems. It seems to me the mystery has been answered by Talley, who made bases and rings to different specs which I would have never suspected.

Yes I never suspected that Talley made the Dakota bases differently and the standard rings were not compatible.