.300 Win Mag Test Results/ Barnes 180 gr. TSX--and Question

[wswolf]

Excellent suggestions here regarding bore cleaning, seating depth and magnum primers. If you have trouble finding Federal 215s, CCI250s are just fine and may be just a bit "hotter" than 215s. I get excellent groups and exceed 3000 fps with H4831sc, Hunter and Magnum with the bonus that all of them are relatively insensitive to temperature changes. Seating depth is a likely culprit for your grouping issues but you might also check bullet runout. Roll a loaded cartridge on a flat surface, a mirror is ideal, and see if the bullet nose has a visible wobble.

 

[bassasdaindia]

I haven't read the entire thread , just the OP .

My comments are :

NEVER CHASE SPEED , RATHER CHASE ACCURACY

The animal that you are hunting won't know the difference between a bullet at 2950 fps or 3000 fps .

 

[PARA45]

IMHO, I think you need to experiment a bit more with the powder & bullet. One load is not an indication that your rifle does not like that powder bullet combination. However, there are additional combinations of that bullet & powder that you can use. Once you find the most accurate load, then you can work (one item at a time) with seating depth, powder increment, etc, etc.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

@MikeDeltaFoxtrot,

I will have to look up the powder again that I developed a load for with the 180gr TTSX in the same rifle as yours. I looked at it last night as I was falling asleep and have forgotten.

I do know one of the loads I developed and was very accurate was a 200gr Nosler Accubond with IMR7828. Again I'll have to look up the charge weight as I don't rememeber. I do know I needed to seat those bullets about 0.020" longer than SAAMI. I think that's about as long as the magazine will allow.

The load I prefer in that rifle is my favorite North Fork bonded cores, 200gr. The load for that is H4831SC. Charge weight I think was 72gr, will have to confirm later. My velocity was 2800fps or more. One thing the North Forks require is good brass or to have the necks turned on your brass so you have consistent neck thickness.

Developing loads with the NF's can get expensive as the bullets are not cheap. But it is a great hunting bullet, and I'd take that load above (and have) all the way to Eland and any PG within 300yards. I'll make this offer to you, it's yours to accept or decline, matters not to me one way or the other:

1) You buy a box of 200gr North Forks. Buy them here: http://www.northforkbullets.com/magento/

2) I'll send you 20 pieces of brass that I've used with these. It's either Norma or Lapua, can't remember off hand. They'll be sized and cleaned and ready to load.

3) You provide your own H4831 or H4831SC, either will work.

4) Build up some rounds starting a bit below my charge weight and work up to mine.

5) If you don't come up with a load that shoots 1" or better groups at 100 yards with that bullet/brass/powder weight, I'll buy the bullets you have left over and pay the shipping, you can keep the brass.

 

[Shootist43]

Phoenix Phil, that is a tough offer to beat. Or in other words putting your money where your mouth is. Either that or as I suspect you have a lot of confidence in that load. If it were me, I'd want to make sure that all the copper had been removed and that a couple of fouling shots had been fired prior to using/testing your loads.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Phoenix Phil, that is a tough offer to beat. Or in other words putting your money where your mouth is. Either that or as I suspect you have a lot of confidence in that load. If it were me, I'd want to make sure that all the copper had been removed and that a couple of fouling shots had been fired prior to using/testing your loads.

Having developed loads for the NF bonded cores in 7x57, .308W, .30-06, .300WM and my .375H&H, yes you could say I have confidence. A zebra taken with one bullet on a frontal quartering shot with the 7x57 and big eland bull taken by my other son with his .308W lends a lot to the confidence level too. And those were with 140gr and 165gr pill respectively, so not exactly heavy for caliber.

Also, hope this isn't being read as a challenge. Just want to pay a bit forward for those who have helped me.

 

[Dr Ray]

Hello: I am preparing for my first African hunting trip. I'll be hunting plains game in the Eastern Cape province of the RSA this coming June. My primary rifle for the trip will be a Winchester M70 Super Grade chambered in .300 Win Mag, topped with a Leupold VX 3i 4.5-14 x40 in Warne rings and bases.

I am developing a load using Barnes 180 gr. TSX bullets and IMR 4350 powder. My goal is 3000 fps and sub-MOA groups off the bench. I have the velocity nailed with 69.3 grains (the max load out of the Barnes manual), but I am not presently satisfied with the accuracy of the load. My groups are averaging 2.3" at 100 yards. Here is the data I have collected. During both ranges session so, far, the air temperature was about 27 degrees Fahrenheit. The velocity numbers are based on a 10 round average for each load.

Day 1
66.0 grains = 2931 fps
67.0 grains = 2880 fps

Day 2
68.0 grains = 2844 fps
68.5 grains = 2888 fps
69.0 grains = 2984 fps
69.3 grains = 3009 fps

I didn't really measures group size the first day, but for the second set up loads, group sizes at 100 yards were as follows:

68.0 grains: 2.137", 2.553"
68.5 grains: 2.830", 1.780"
69.0 grains: 3.990", 1.774"
69.3 grains: 2.229", 1.768"

Average group size across all 8 groups is 2.38". All the loads except the 69.3 were seated to 3.340", which is what it says in the Barnes manual. For the 69.3 loads, I measured the chamber with the Hornady gauge and seated .050" off the lands for a OAL of 3.427". Those rounds are too long to fit in the magazine, and there doesn't seem to be much difference in accuracy.

I am wondering what I can do to improve the accuracy of my loads at this point. In excess of 2 MOA is not acceptable. For testing, the gun is sandbagged in place on a benchrest. I shoot an average of .6" groups from the same set up with my Remington 700 Varmint in .308, using Sierra MatchKing bullets, it it isn't me.

Do I need to try a different powder? Should I continue experimenting with the seating depth?

Any help is much appreciated.

I assume the barrel is completely free floating. Are you getting fliers after a few shots? Are the Bullets climbing on the target?
You may have to try H4831 (I think that’s the North American brand for the oz power).
It’s fairly slow and maybe that will solve the issue???
Primers may need switching??

 

[fourfive8]

Here's a chart showing ADI-Hodgdon equivalent powders.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

@MikeDeltaFoxtrot,

I will have to look up the powder again that I developed a load for with the 180gr TTSX in the same rifle as yours. I looked at it last night as I was falling asleep and have forgotten.

I do know one of the loads I developed and was very accurate was a 200gr Nosler Accubond with IMR7828. Again I'll have to look up the charge weight as I don't rememeber. I do know I needed to seat those bullets about 0.020" longer than SAAMI. I think that's about as long as the magazine will allow.

The load I prefer in that rifle is my favorite North Fork bonded cores, 200gr. The load for that is H4831SC. Charge weight I think was 72gr, will have to confirm later. My velocity was 2800fps or more. One thing the North Forks require is good brass or to have the necks turned on your brass so you have consistent neck thickness.

Developing loads with the NF's can get expensive as the bullets are not cheap. But it is a great hunting bullet, and I'd take that load above (and have) all the way to Eland and any PG within 300yards. I'll make this offer to you, it's yours to accept or decline, matters not to me one way or the other:

1) You buy a box of 200gr North Forks. Buy them here: http://www.northforkbullets.com/magento/

2) I'll send you 20 pieces of brass that I've used with these. It's either Norma or Lapua, can't remember off hand. They'll be sized and cleaned and ready to load.

3) You provide your own H4831 or H4831SC, either will work.

4) Build up some rounds starting a bit below my charge weight and work up to mine.

5) If you don't come up with a load that shoots 1" or better groups at 100 yards with that bullet/brass/powder weight, I'll buy the bullets you have left over and pay the shipping, you can keep the brass.

@MikeDeltaFoxtrot,

Correction to my previous post.

The 200gr Accubond load was using RL25.

The 180gr TTSX load was using IMR7828 SSC.

 

[Buckdog]

@MikeDeltaFoxtrot,

I will have to look up the powder again that I developed a load for with the 180gr TTSX in the same rifle as yours. I looked at it last night as I was falling asleep and have forgotten.

I do know one of the loads I developed and was very accurate was a 200gr Nosler Accubond with IMR7828. Again I'll have to look up the charge weight as I don't rememeber. I do know I needed to seat those bullets about 0.020" longer than SAAMI. I think that's about as long as the magazine will allow.

The load I prefer in that rifle is my favorite North Fork bonded cores, 200gr. The load for that is H4831SC. Charge weight I think was 72gr, will have to confirm later. My velocity was 2800fps or more. One thing the North Forks require is good brass or to have the necks turned on your brass so you have consistent neck thickness.

Developing loads with the NF's can get expensive as the bullets are not cheap. But it is a great hunting bullet, and I'd take that load above (and have) all the way to Eland and any PG within 300yards. I'll make this offer to you, it's yours to accept or decline, matters not to me one way or the other:

1) You buy a box of 200gr North Forks. Buy them here: http://www.northforkbullets.com/magento/

2) I'll send you 20 pieces of brass that I've used with these. It's either Norma or Lapua, can't remember off hand. They'll be sized and cleaned and ready to load.

3) You provide your own H4831 or H4831SC, either will work.

4) Build up some rounds starting a bit below my charge weight and work up to mine.

5) If you don't come up with a load that shoots 1" or better groups at 100 yards with that bullet/brass/powder weight, I'll buy the bullets you have left over and pay the shipping, you can keep the brass.

Hey Phil I want some free brass too!!
Just kidding you..
may I suggest Phil that you and the OP try some H1000 or RL22 for the 200gr AB's IMR7828 is kinda slow for the 300winny, you may find that you can get better velocity out of the AB's and still get super accuracy. H1000 and RL22 are kinda the go to powders for 300 win mags. try it you will like it

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Hey Phil I want some free brass too!!
Just kidding you..
may I suggest Phil that you and the OP try some H1000 or RL22 for the 200gr AB's IMR7828 is kinda slow for the 300winny, you may find that you can get better velocity out of the AB's and still get super accuracy. H1000 and RL22 are kinda the go to powders for 300 win mags. try it you will like it

Seems I played with H1000 when I was developing loads for that rifle. Results were okay accuracy wise. As mentioned in my correction post, it was actually RL25 that gave great accuracy with the 200gr AB's.

Likely as long as I can buy the 200gr NF's, that will be the load for that rifle. The Accubond load will be the backup if needed. Truth is that load was better than the North Fork load, but I wanted that high weight retention for an Eland load.

 

[PLM]

My 300 WM did not like RL 22 with 180 or 200 gr bullets. I tried H 4831, not sc, with 200 gr, partitions, accubonds and speer grand slams. They all shot around 1 moa but the accubonds were the best. First time I had ever used accubonds and I was impressed with the performance on game.

 

[MikeDeltaFoxtrot]

@MikeDeltaFoxtrot,

Correction to my previous post.

The 200gr Accubond load was using RL25.

The 180gr TTSX load was using IMR7828 SSC.

Thank you for your generous offer. I won't take you up on the offer of free brass, but if you can suggest what I should buy for brass and share your recipe for the Northforks, I would be much obliged.

BTW, I have made some progress with the Barnes bullets by switching to IMR 4831. I will post velocities and group sizes later.

 

[BRICKBURN]

That's where I had success.

IMR 4831 71.0 Grains 180 grain TTSX

Standard disclaimer: Work up your own load safely from the low end of the specs and don't just copy this or another one.


https://www.africahunting.com/threads/making-my-way-to-barnes.36029/

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Thank you for your generous offer. I won't take you up on the offer of free brass, but if you can suggest what I should buy for brass and share your recipe for the Northforks, I would be much obliged.

BTW, I have made some progress with the Barnes bullets by switching to IMR 4831. I will post velocities and group sizes later.

Norma Brass
Fed 215 Primer
72gr of H4831SC (H4831 should work just fine too)
200gr North Fork Bonded Cores

My M70 likes to have bullets seated long. Limited by magazine to 0.020" over spec of 3.34", or 3.36". I also use a Hornday Factory Crimp Die with just enough crimp to smooth the leading edge of the brass a bit.

Please start with a couple of shots say at 69, 70, 71, 71.5 and 72gr of powder to be safe and of course pay attention to pressure signs. At 72gr and a 3.36" COAL, I've not noticed any with easy bolt lift.

North Fork also sells 20 piece sample packs if you want to not buy a whole box of 50. If you have any left over and don't want them, the offer still stands to buy what you have.

 

[MikeDeltaFoxtrot]

So I have made two more trips to the range to work on this, and I think I finally have a load. As mentioned above, things started improving when switched to IMR 4831. I also switched from CCI to Federal primers, although I am not sure how much difference that made. I first tried five different powder charges with the 180 Barnes TSX bullets seated to SAAMI length of 3.340". Here are the results. These are three shot groups shot at 100 yards. I was losing the light, so I was shooting faster than I should have been.

Load (grains) Velocity(fps) Group Size (Inches)
68.0 2874 1.593"
69.0 2903 1.223"
70.0 2979 2.222"
71.0 3042 1.974"
72.0 3074 2.014"

Today I decided to do further work with the 69 and 71 grains loads. The 69 had the best accuracy and the 71 was the most accurate load that averaged over 3000 fps. I loaded 10 rounds of each charge, 5 at the 3.34" and 5 at 3.40", which is 80 thousandths off the lands. That is about as long as will fit in the magazine. I took my time shooting, waiting 5 minutes between shots to let the barrel cool. It was a warm day at 60 degrees Fahrenheit. The results with the 71 grain loads were abysmal. The advantage of five shot groups is they really show you what is going on better than three shot.

Load (grains) OAL (inches) Velocity(fps) Group Size (Inches)
69 3.34 2957 1.085
69 3.40 2927 1.454
71 3.34 3021 4.076
71 3.40 3022 3.344

So, the bottom line is that I think my load is 69 grains of IMR4831 seated at 3.340". The 1.085" group works out to 1.04 MOA. I can live with 2957. Here is a photo of the group. The dot is 3/4".

 

[Pheroze]

I don't see anything troubling about that group at all. I suspect your barrel was warming up. Congratulations! I presume the red dot is one MOA?

 

[larry4831]

I bet if you seated a tad deeper the accuracy would get even better.

 

[MikeDeltaFoxtrot]

I don't see anything troubling about that group at all. I suspect your barrel was warming up. Congratulations! I presume the red dot is one MOA?

The dot is 3/4" which is .716 MOA at this range.

 

[larry4831]

PS as you already know, you don’t want to go to deep though because pressures can escalate. But I’ve had really good luck with two rifles with Barnes TSX when I seat them deep. For whatever reason they Really like that jump.