358 Norma

[Jamie D Van Roekel]

Happy Thanksgiving all. I was wondering if any of you boys have played with the 358 Norma. I was thinking about building one. In Iowa you can hunt deer with a rifle over 35 cal. I thought the 180 TTSX would be a hit. Then in Africa the 270 a frame would be great for the big plains game. I know the 375 would work but for the deer in Iowa you can’t get below 225-235.

Not easy to find data for it so was wondering if you guys may have some.

 

[RStien321]

Have one - and built it for the same reason you did (Iowa Deer hunting regulations). Built mine more in the spirit of a "Alaska rifle" Winchester Model 70 (stainless) action with a 22" stainless barrel, black cerakote, NECG sites, McMillan Super Grade Stock, topped with a Nightforce 2.5-10x32 in quick detach rings.

I have mine loaded with a 222 grain Hammer Hunter. Pushing close to 2900fps with a really mild load. Successfully hunted deer with it to 300 yards. Wouldn't hesitate to hunt further with more time and load development.

I also have three boxes of 280 grain Swift Aframes that are ready for use if I would do Grizzly or Moose hunting in close quarters. I actually think I am going to stick with the 222 grain Hammer Hunter if it goes to Africa.

Fair warning - the 358 Norma is super niche. Unless you already have brass on hand, or are comfortable forming your own, I would approach with caution. Love mine, but sourced over 200 pieces of brass as I was putting together the rifle components.

 

[MS 9x56]

If you are going to use a 35 caliber rifle why would you want to use a light for caliber bullet? As this will negate the advantage of using a larger caliber. In a 358 Norma I would recommend using the 250 grain oryx bullet. I am a 35 caliber aficienado myself. I have rifles in 35 remington, 358 winchester, 350 legend, 35 Whelen and the European version the 9x56 MS. In the slower rounds I use 200 grain roundnose bullets in the others I use 250 bullets Nosler or Norma are my preferred makes. If you go lighter and faster you will lose a lot of meat to bloodshot bruising. Good luck with your 358 Norma it will make a great moose or boar round but is really a bit of overkill on deer.

 

[wswolf]

Mine is on a post-64 Model 70 with a 24" barrel with 12" twist.
.338 Win Mag brass works fine - just size load and shoot. Cases will turn out a little short.
.300 Win Mag brass also works but will need trimming.
Follow the ancient advice and reduce the following powder charges by 5% to start and do not exceed.
200 TTSX - 74 gn Varget - 3160 fps
225 Nosler Ballistic Tip - 67 gn Big Game - 2670 fps
or 68 gn Varget - 2920 fps
225 TSX - 71 Varget or Reloder 15- 2940 fps
250 Nosler Partition - 73 gn Big Game - 2840 fps
or 77 gn IMR4451 - 2810 fps
or 78 gn H4350 - 2850 fps
250 Speer - 72 gn Reloder 16 - 2760 fps
280 Swift - 65 Reloder 15 - 2590 fps
or 72.5 H4350 - 2680 fps

Cheers

 

[RStien321]

If you are going to use a 35 caliber rifle why would you want to use a light for caliber bullet? .....Good luck with your 358 Norma it will make a great moose or boar round but is really a bit of overkill on deer.

I can help provide some context:

The reason for this is because of regulation. In the state of Iowa, we can use any rifle cartridge .35"-.50" in diameter. This has caused a bit of a resurgence in 35 caliber rifles - 350 Legend in an AR platform and 35 Whelen in a bolt platform being the most popular.

The quest for most of us is to build the flattest shooting rifle possible for deer hunting out to 400-500 yards. Going heavier really offers no advantage on a whitetail deer in terminal performance, but finding a good lightweight bullet can drive muzzle velocity up, flatten trajectory a bit, and the all copper bullets tend to perform well even when a close shot is presented.

 

[cmk]

Here's some reloading data from Norma themselves:

358 NORMA MAGNUM | Reloading Data for hand loading

www.norma-ammunition.com

Not a huge selection of bullets and weights, though. The listed powder "203-B" is 'the same' as Reloder-15, or at least close enough. Both are just brand names for a powder manufactured by Eurenco Bofors. Start low and work your way up, watch for pressure signs etc etc.

@RAVEN ROCKS PRECISION seem to have some Norma brass in stock, but not the 358 Norma Mag - but perhaps they can put it on the next order ?

 

[PerH]

It can use 180 grain .357 mag revolver bullets

Woodleigh up to 310 grain , otherwise the others are good

Nosler Accubond is good and Tsx and others just great.

The old standby for it is Nosler P 250

Try Rhino and Northfork also ( in case Swift ain’t making some up to 280 grain

Just stay away from Oryx FL loaded , that one is just bad and should not been loaded at all in that speed .

 

[RAVEN ROCKS PRECISION]

Here's some reloading data from Norma themselves:

358 NORMA MAGNUM | Reloading Data for hand loading

www.norma-ammunition.com

Not a huge selection of bullets and weights, though. The listed powder "203-B" is 'the same' as Reloder-15, or at least close enough. Both are just brand names for a powder manufactured by Eurenco Bofors. Start low and work your way up, watch for pressure signs etc etc.

@RAVEN ROCKS PRECISION seem to have some Norma brass in stock, but not the 358 Norma Mag - but perhaps they can put it on the next order ?

The 358 Norma Mag is on the way... Exceptionally long lead times on some of this stuff unfortunately. We have the 308 Norma Mag for anyone who wants to neck up in the meantime.

 

[Jamie D Van Roekel]

Have one - and built it for the same reason you did (Iowa Deer hunting regulations). Built mine more in the spirit of a "Alaska rifle" Winchester Model 70 (stainless) action with a 22" stainless barrel, black cerakote, NECG sites, McMillan Super Grade Stock, topped with a Nightforce 2.5-10x32 in quick detach rings.

I have mine loaded with a 222 grain Hammer Hunter. Pushing close to 2900fps with a really mild load. Successfully hunted deer with it to 300 yards. Wouldn't hesitate to hunt further with more time and load development.

I also have three boxes of 280 grain Swift Aframes that are ready for use if I would do Grizzly or Moose hunting in close quarters. I actually think I am going to stick with the 222 grain Hammer Hunter if it goes to Africa.

Fair warning - the 358 Norma is super niche. Unless you already have brass on hand, or are comfortable forming your own, I would approach with caution. Love mine, but sourced over 200 pieces of brass as I was putting together the rifle components.

I would probably form my own. And find some factory to save for Africa. Thanks for the info.

 

[Jamie D Van Roekel]

Mine is on a post-64 Model 70 with a 24" barrel with 12" twist.
.338 Win Mag brass works fine - just size load and shoot. Cases will turn out a little short.
.300 Win Mag brass also works but will need trimming.
Follow the ancient advice and reduce the following powder charges by 5% to start and do not exceed.
200 TTSX - 74 gn Varget - 3160 fps
225 Nosler Ballistic Tip - 67 gn Big Game - 2670 fps
or 68 gn Varget - 2920 fps
225 TSX - 71 Varget or Reloder 15- 2940 fps
250 Nosler Partition - 73 gn Big Game - 2840 fps
or 77 gn IMR4451 - 2810 fps
or 78 gn H4350 - 2850 fps
250 Speer - 72 gn Reloder 16 - 2760 fps
280 Swift - 65 Reloder 15 - 2590 fps
or 72.5 H4350 - 2680 fps

Cheers

Thanks

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Happy Thanksgiving all. I was wondering if any of you boys have played with the 358 Norma. I was thinking about building one. In Iowa you can hunt deer with a rifle over 35 cal. I thought the 180 TTSX would be a hit. Then in Africa the 270 a frame would be great for the big plains game. I know the 375 would work but for the deer in Iowa you can’t get below 225-235.

Not easy to find data for it so was wondering if you guys may have some.

@Jamie D Van Roekel
As good as the 358 norma is have you thought about the 35 Whelen.
The Whelen loaded properly ain't far behind the big sweede.
A 250 gn at 2,700fps out of the Whelen will handle 99%of game.
A 225gn at 2,900fps shoots flat for a long ways out.
The big Woodleigh 310gn RNSP at 2,400,fps is a lot of bone crunching power.
The 180gn TTSX can be loaded to over 3,000 fps in the Whelen but that bullet looses speed real quick compared to the 225s.
The big Norma is great but the Whelen is up there with it when loaded properly.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Mine is on a post-64 Model 70 with a 24" barrel with 12" twist.
.338 Win Mag brass works fine - just size load and shoot. Cases will turn out a little short.
.300 Win Mag brass also works but will need trimming.
Follow the ancient advice and reduce the following powder charges by 5% to start and do not exceed.
200 TTSX - 74 gn Varget - 3160 fps
225 Nosler Ballistic Tip - 67 gn Big Game - 2670 fps
or 68 gn Varget - 2920 fps
225 TSX - 71 Varget or Reloder 15- 2940 fps
250 Nosler Partition - 73 gn Big Game - 2840 fps
or 77 gn IMR4451 - 2810 fps
or 78 gn H4350 - 2850 fps
250 Speer - 72 gn Reloder 16 - 2760 fps
280 Swift - 65 Reloder 15 - 2590 fps
or 72.5 H4350 - 2680 fps

Cheers

@wswolf
So it's not doing much the 35 Whelen won't do.
Where the 358 Norma would shine is with the 310grainers but the Whelen pushes them to over 2,400 fps anyway.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I can help provide some context:

The reason for this is because of regulation. In the state of Iowa, we can use any rifle cartridge .35"-.50" in diameter. This has caused a bit of a resurgence in 35 caliber rifles - 350 Legend in an AR platform and 35 Whelen in a bolt platform being the most popular.

The quest for most of us is to build the flattest shooting rifle possible for deer hunting out to 400-500 yards. Going heavier really offers no advantage on a whitetail deer in terminal performance, but finding a good lightweight bullet can drive muzzle velocity up, flatten trajectory a bit, and the all copper bullets tend to perform well even when a close shot is presented.

@RStien321
Problem is those light bullets loose velocity quickly. By the time you get to 300 yards a good 225 will have overtaken the lighter bullet.
Bob

 

[RStien321]

@wswolf
So it's not doing much the 35 Whelen won't do.
Where the 358 Norma would shine is with the 310grainers but the Whelen pushes them to over 2,400 fps anyway.
Bob

Respect the work you’ve done on getting the most out of the 35 Whelen, but comparing loads that are nearly 200fps over what load data suggests for the Whelen to book loads for the 358 Norma isn’t really an apples to apples comparison.

 

[RStien321]

@RStien321
Problem is those light bullets loose velocity quickly. By the time you get to 300 yards a good 225 will have overtaken the lighter bullet.
Bob

That’s a fair point - even taking swift bullets from 225-280 there is like 3” of drop difference at 300 yards.

But the lighter bullets will maintain a flatter trajectory well past 400yd, but will arrive with less velocity at that distance.

 

[BlueFlyer]

My cousin had a 358NM built on a P14 that he had been using for the last 30yrs on Sambar. Unfortunately it was stolen out of his vehicle at work. He started using a 300WM, but was not impressed at how far the deer ran after being shot.
When another 358NM came up built on the 98 Mauser he just bought it. He is now very happy to be back using the 358NM.
His latest stag and his GSP that is the dam to my GSP.

 

[MS 9x56]

That’s a fair point - even taking swift bullets from 225-280 there is like 3” of drop difference at 300 yards.

But the lighter bullets will maintain a flatter trajectory well past 400yd, but will arrive with less velocity at that distance.

Don't send a sports car to do a dump trucks job.

 

[Jamie D Van Roekel]

@Jamie D Van Roekel
As good as the 358 norma is have you thought about the 35 Whelen.
The Whelen loaded properly ain't far behind the big sweede.
A 250 gn at 2,700fps out of the Whelen will handle 99%of game.
A 225gn at 2,900fps shoots flat for a long ways out.
The big Woodleigh 310gn RNSP at 2,400,fps is a lot of bone crunching power.
The 180gn TTSX can be loaded to over 3,000 fps in the Whelen but that bullet looses speed real quick compared to the 225s.
The big Norma is great but the Whelen is up there with it when loaded properly.
Bob

Nice hearing from you Bob. Don’t think I’ve bantered with you since you said “a 243 wasn’t up to hunting rats” or something similar. lol!! Hope things are well with you.

I am in the process of building a Whelen. But thought the Norma with a 280gr. Swift would make a backup to a big gun that would be out of commission. I know not ideal and not legal but when it hits the fan you could hunt and feel very up to the task. I thought about a 9.3x64 but even harder to get ammo for here and can’t get the real light bullets for hunting deer in the States.

 

[Saul]

The 358 Norma has become my latest obsession. Just need to decide how I will acquire one. A superbly cool cartridge.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Respect the work you’ve done on getting the most out of the 35 Whelen, but comparing loads that are nearly 200fps over what load data suggests for the Whelen to book loads for the 358 Norma isn’t really an apples to apples comparison.

@RStien321
The loads I use are book loads straight from Nosler, Speer and Sierra using modern powders.
The big sweede is capable of even better with the newer powders as well that will give it a boost
Bob