404 Jeffrey Brass

[Huvius]

If you're not put off by Berdan primers, I have about 75pcs of primed Kynoch brass.
I used these cases in my William Evans 404.
The fired brass I deprimed with water and a plunger - outside of course.
Just lathed out an aluminum plunger with an Oring and a base that the brass sits in - drilled out of course for the primer to pass through.
As mentioned above, brass does flow and fire form quite easily.
Even in depriming the Berdan brass, I got the brass blowing out at the shoulder and that was just with a smack on the plunger with a hammer!
Some were minimal enough to smooth out in the 404 die but others had to be sized down in some other dies enough to fit in the 404 die again...
Ideally, I'd set up a press outside and deprime with the brass in the FLS die to avoid this.

Just goes to show, when there is a brass shortage, there are some options. Not always ideal but options none the less.

 

[GuttormG]

Here in Norway we have lots of tools to remove berdan primers (all 6,5x55 ammunition used in target shooting were berdan-primed until +/-1990); if one have berdan primed brass it is well worth the job to make a tool that do not make a fuss and deform the case.

I like this style best.

 

[Maskell Shotgun academy]

If you're not put off by Berdan primers, I have about 75pcs of primed Kynoch brass.
I used these cases in my William Evans 404.
The fired brass I deprimed with water and a plunger - outside of course.
Just lathed out an aluminum plunger with an Oring and a base that the brass sits in - drilled out of course for the primer to pass through.
As mentioned above, brass does flow and fire form quite easily.
Even in depriming the Berdan brass, I got the brass blowing out at the shoulder and that was just with a smack on the plunger with a hammer!
Some were minimal enough to smooth out in the 404 die but others had to be sized down in some other dies enough to fit in the 404 die again...
Ideally, I'd set up a press outside and deprime with the brass in the FLS die to avoid this.

Just goes to show, when there is a brass shortage, there are some options. Not always ideal but options none the less.

View attachment 680336
View attachment 680337

Never heard of those primers, I take it won’t just go through a normal sizing die to deprime?

 

[Huvius]

Never heard of those primers, I take it won’t just go through a normal sizing die to deprime?

Nope. Berdan have two small flash holes as Boxer have the larger central flash hole.
Would also need the Berdan primers, which I have, to reprime them.

 

[Maskell Shotgun academy]

it would probably be easier to buy 375 RUM and resize it

 

[Ontario Hunter]

My only concern is 375 RUM brass is 0.025" shorter than 404J. If we were talking cartridges that were belted or had sharp shoulders it might not be a big deal. But I know from my own experience reloading RWS brass that was a bit short this can be a headache for snap over on soft shouldered non-belted 404J. The shoulder gets pushed back just enough during sizing to screw things up. I'm not sure the RUM brass could be made to stretch that much. Might not be a big deal IF the sizing dies are set up with full length 404 cases. In this case I think I would be inclined to neck size only. Should work okay for the range (anyway no one will be taking stuff with wrong headstamp to Africa for dangerous game).

I wonder if it would be possible to blow out 300 RUM cases to take .423 bullets? Quite a stretch (literally!) but would be nice because that brass is a lot more accessible than 375 RUM. Same case length and rim as 375 RUM.

I suspect RUM brass would snap over very easily in 404 chambers as the rim is slightly smaller. If the extractor will hang onto case until the ejector kicks it out, I don't see why this wouldn't work.

Edit: Just for perspective, my RWS brass is 2.84". Standard length is 2.875".

 

[Ontario Hunter]

My only concern is 375 RUM brass is 0.025" shorter than 404J. If we were talking cartridges that were belted or had sharp shoulders it might not be a big deal. But I know from my own experience reloading RWS brass that was a bit short this can be a headache for snap over on soft shouldered non-belted 404J. The shoulder gets pushed back just enough during sizing to screw things up. I'm not sure the RUM brass could be made to stretch that much. Might not be a big deal IF the sizing dies are set up with full length 404 cases. In this case I think I would be inclined to neck size only. Should work okay for the range (anyway no one will be taking stuff with wrong headstamp to Africa for dangerous game).

I wonder if it would be possible to blow out 300 RUM cases to take .423 bullets? Quite a stretch (literally!) but would be nice because that brass is a lot more accessible than 375 RUM. Same case length and rim as 375 RUM.

I suspect RUM brass would snap over very easily in 404 chambers as the rim is slightly smaller. If the extractor will hang onto case until the ejector kicks it out, I don't see why this wouldn't work.

Edit: Just for perspective, my RWS brass is 2.84". Standard length is 2.875".

To clarify: AFTER fireforming RUM case to 404, I would switch to neck sizing only.

The second problem with my RWS brass is the rim thickness is wildly inconsistent: a bigger issue for snap over. And a DGR that won't snap over is half a club.

 

[Maskell Shotgun academy]

My only concern is 375 RUM brass is 0.025" shorter than 404J. If we were talking cartridges that were belted or had sharp shoulders it might not be a big deal. But I know from my own experience reloading RWS brass that was a bit short this can be a headache for snap over on soft shouldered non-belted 404J. The shoulder gets pushed back just enough during sizing to screw things up. I'm not sure the RUM brass could be made to stretch that much. Might not be a big deal IF the sizing dies are set up with full length 404 cases. In this case I think I would be inclined to neck size only. Should work okay for the range (anyway no one will be taking stuff with wrong headstamp to Africa for dangerous game).

I wonder if it would be possible to blow out 300 RUM cases to take .423 bullets? Quite a stretch (literally!) but would be nice because that brass is a lot more accessible than 375 RUM. Same case length and rim as 375 RUM.

I suspect RUM brass would snap over very easily in 404 chambers as the rim is slightly smaller. If the extractor will hang onto case until the ejector kicks it out, I don't see why this wouldn't work.

Edit: Just for perspective, my RWS brass is 2.84". Standard length is 2.875".

I would not have thought that .003 would make any difference at all,
However I don’t have a lot of experience with the 404 Jeffrey

 

[Huvius]

I would not have thought that .003 would make any difference at all,
However I don’t have a lot of experience with the 404 Jeffrey

It doesn’t.
The 404 has a long neck and headspaces off the shoulder so no worries in that regard.

 

[CZDiesel]

Hi Guys
still looking for some 404 Jeffrey Brass
Mike

Here is some 404 Jeff brass for you. I ordered some 470 Capstick brass from him several weeks back. He had great communication and I received the brass in about a week. Just shoot him an email

404 Jeffery's Unprimed Brass Cases

404 Jeffery's Unprimed Brass Cases One of the great range of obsolete ammunition cases available from Northern Shooters Supplies, also obsolete ammunition dies.

www.northernshooterssupplies.com.au

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I would not have thought that .003 would make any difference at all,
However I don’t have a lot of experience with the 404 Jeffrey

The difference between case length of RWS brass and standard length Hornady brass is thirty-five thousandths not three thousandths. The problem is 404 has a soft sloping shoulder. If the case is short, the shoulder is pushed back during sizing. Then the extractor doesn't snap over when cartridge is dropped in the chamber. Curiously, the cases don't extract when fired. One would think recoil would push the rim back under extractor but nope. Presumably case expands against the sides of chamber when fired, locking it in place with rim still ahead of claw. Extractor picked up RWS cases from magazine but wouldn't snap over when dropped in the chamber. It was a combination of short case with shoulder pushed back and inconsistent rim thickness. Needless to say, I'm done with RWS brass!

 

[Maskell Shotgun academy]

The difference between case length of RWS brass and standard length Hornady brass is thirty-five thousandths not three thousandths. The problem is 404 has a soft sloping shoulder. If the case is short, the shoulder is pushed back

Understood,

 

[Huvius]

If the case is short, the shoulder is pushed back during sizing.

Wrong.
The shoulder is sized in relation to the base/rim, not the mouth.
The length of the case has zero bearing on where the shoulder is set.

 

[Maskell Shotgun academy]

Wrong.
The shoulder is sized in relation to the base/rim, not the mouth.
The length of the case has zero bearing on where the shoulder is set.

Good to know, because I do have some RWS brass I picked up

 

[MacJenkins]

The difference between case length of RWS brass and standard length Hornady brass is thirty-five thousandths not three thousandths. The problem is 404 has a soft sloping shoulder. If the case is short, the shoulder is pushed back during sizing. Then the extractor doesn't snap over when cartridge is dropped in the chamber. Curiously, the cases don't extract when fired. One would think recoil would push the rim back under extractor but nope. Presumably case expands against the sides of chamber when fired, locking it in place with rim still ahead of claw. Extractor picked up RWS cases from magazine but wouldn't snap over when dropped in the chamber. It was a combination of short case with shoulder pushed back and inconsistent rim thickness. Needless to say, I'm done with RWS brass!

This doesn’t make sense to me. Have any pics of the case head with a fired primer still in the case? Or shall I say a primer sticking a good way out of the case? I can’t see how a neck short .035” would have any effect on headspace.

Is the headspace on a 375 rum shorter than a 404? If so creating a false shoulder when necking up the brass would fix the problem.

 

[Rifleman97]

Not the case head but the rim is slightly smaller in diameter. No problem in my mod70.

But not sure how available RUM- cases is?

Iirc ADG makes it and is pretty easy to get. I saw some on LRH recently. If not ADG maybe it was Peterson? Can’t remember for sure but one of those two makes it currently

 

[Nevada Mike]

I have (and use) both Norma and RWS brass. I used RWS brass on my last Buff hunt and had no issues. I did fireform all of it before loading. The Norma brass had one slight problem... I had to aggressively ream the primer pockets to allow my primers to seat. Once this was done they worked well.

I am down to my last Shooters Pack (50) of Norma 404 brass and I am conserving it, not knowing if I will be able to get more. I regret leaving my unfired 404 rounds with my outfitter in Tanzania.

 

[Maskell Shotgun academy]

I have (and use) both Norma and RWS brass. I used RWS brass on my last Buff hunt and had no issues. I did fireform all of it before loading. The Norma brass had one slight problem... I had to aggressively ream the primer pockets to allow my primers to seat. Once this was done they worked well.

I am down to my last Shooters Pack (50) of Norma 404 brass and I am conserving it, not knowing if I will be able to get more. I regret leaving my unfired 404 rounds with my outfitter in Tanzania.

I try to buy what I can as far as brass goes, if it’s to difficult to find I will invest in a bunch of loaded Hornady factory loaded rounds and shoot them and load them as needed, I understand that Hornady is good stuff as well

 

[Ontario Hunter]

This doesn’t make sense to me. Have any pics of the case head with a fired primer still in the case? Or shall I say a primer sticking a good way out of the case? I can’t see how a neck short .035” would have any effect on headspace.

Is the headspace on a 375 rum shorter than a 404? If so creating a false shoulder when necking up the brass would fix the problem.

Actually, yes, I was getting primers protruding from the pocket and at first assumed the loads were too weak ... even though I started at minimum. But I was in the habit at the range of snapping over on single cartridges dropped in the chamber. Cartridges picked up on bolt face from the magazine did not have the problem but I almost never loaded the magazine at the range.

The problem was caused from setting my dies up on my first box of brass which was too short. So when sizing I was pushing the

 

[Ontario Hunter]

This doesn’t make sense to me. Have any pics of the case head with a fired primer still in the case? Or shall I say a primer sticking a good way out of the case? I can’t see how a neck short .035” would have any effect on headspace.

Is the headspace on a 375 rum shorter than a 404? If so creating a false shoulder when necking up the brass would fix the problem.

Having trouble getting posts completed.

You're absolutely correct! Case length should not affect shoulder placement if dies are set up correctly. It appears the problem is entirely inconsistent rim thickness of RWS brass. I don't need to measure the rim thickness. Variations are apparent to naked eye. I suppose I could thin my 404's extractor to snap over on all RWS brass but I'm not liking that idea.

The other issue with short cases is crimping bullets in cannelure. That requires seating the bullet deeper which changes the load performance, at least theoretically. But for range work I don't need to crimp or snap over. Just load one at a time from the magazine. So I set the dies up for Hornady brass and standard OAL. Will still work for RWS range use. Anyway, right now I'm using up a box of old Barnes TX bullets with no cannelure so not a big issue.