404 Jeffrey - Oh Boy, another project!

[Rez Exelon]

One more update because I'm a sucker for punishment and don't sleep enough.

First test:
I took Piece Number 1 from the chart above and decided that I might as well get a little destructive in my testing. I happen to have a set of 458 Lott dies and I thought "Hey, I can just use the expander to fluff out the neck some, and then run it into the CH4D die and see what it sets it back to". Well, this might have been a great idea but I put it in too far and kind of crumpled the neck and belled out the neck too far to run it into the die. I managed to save the brass eventually by folding the bell back in a bit and then carefully working through a series of dies to straighten it out, but alas, that piece is off the shelf for firing in the future. I shoved a Woodleigh in it and it's going to be relegated to the "die setup" pile so I seated it to the cannelure, crimped it and off it went. It was kind of a solid idea, and I might try again later while being more careful, but I didn't science the results onto paper as I got focused on not entirely losing the piece of brass.

Second test:
After #1 didn't go so well, I got curious how measurements would play out with my current "I can get it to work" test method which is a bit safer, and figured I'd sacrifice Piece Number 2. Basically, this was developed per suggestion earlier in the thread, where I can take the brass, size it with the "real" die (which never does anything) and then size it again with a 416 Ruger die (Sidenote: Man I'm really glad I won the eBay auction for those a while back. They've been in a drawer for 2 years but I got them at a really stupid price LOL). The trick is to adjust the dies so they are only sizing the neck, which I did.

Doing that method, results in a neck with perfect tension to hold some boolits in it. So what do the actual measurements look like. Great question:

Off the shelf: OD: .438, ID: .416, T1: .010, T2: .012
Post Sizing: OD: .435, ID: .412, T1: .010, T2: .012 --- Basically it shrank the neck by .003

As a bonus test, I figured, what the heck, let's check it by shoving a bullet in it too. So I grabbed a Speer Hot Cor and made a second die setup reference cartridge. Obviously with the bullet in there the only one of the 4 measurements I can get is the OD which came in at .438.

Obviously all these measurements have some margin of error due to calipers and how hard I squeeze when measuring. Were I to make an educated guess, I'd probably say the ID on the post sizing line was really .413, and probably the OD with the bullet in there was .437. Mainly because I'd expect the shift of .003 to apply to both OD and ID measurements in the former, and because I'd expect that if the OD was the initial measured size with the bullet in there then I wouldn't have neck tension. But I may not be entirely solid in my thinking as it is getting past my bedtime.

 

[Rez Exelon]

Talked to CH4D again today --- looks like the tests yielded some results --- basically they were able to compare the measurements to the specs on the die prints and the expected neck thickness. Basically, for a .416 cal bullet, with the .447 expected neck diameter that yields a delta of .031 meaning that the neck thickness of the brass is expected to be .0155 on average. Being that most of my brass is measuring at an average of .0107 that's a fair difference of ~.01 total, or ~.005 per side.

End result right now, is that I've gotta get new brass.

They did indicate that it was possible to make a special die for thin walled brass to account for what I've got, but at a 18-24 month lead time I'm going to opt for acquisition of new brass first.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Talked to CH4D again today --- looks like the tests yielded some results --- basically they were able to compare the measurements to the specs on the die prints and the expected neck thickness. Basically, for a .416 cal bullet, with the .447 expected neck diameter that yields a delta of .031 meaning that the neck thickness of the brass is expected to be .0155 on average. Being that most of my brass is measuring at an average of .0107 that's a fair difference of ~.01 total, or ~.005 per side.

End result right now, is that I've gotta get new brass.

They did indicate that it was possible to make a special die for thin walled brass to account for what I've got, but at a 18-24 month lead time I'm going to opt for acquisition of new brass first.

Hard to believe your brass thickness could be off that much. Factory seconds or shot out? As I said, the RWS 404 brass I bought second hand has walls at the mouth that are noticeably thinner than Hornady brass. It certainly did not appear to be preshot or trimmed. I haven't calipered the case walls, but I'm not having any issues with bullets seating or staying put after crimping. I should drop same powder load in each case and see how they measure up. Difficult to make good comparison looking in the mouth as I know RWS brass is also shorter than Hornady.

 

[Rez Exelon]

Hard to believe your brass thickness could be off that much. Factory seconds or shot out? As I said, the RWS 404 brass I bought second hand has walls at the mouth that are noticeably thinner than Hornady brass. It certainly did not appear to be preshot or trimmed. I haven't calipered the case walls, but I'm not having any issues with bullets seating or staying put after crimping. I should drop same powder load in each case and see how they measure up. Difficult to make good comparison looking in the mouth as I know RWS brass is also shorter than Hornady.

Really no telling what kind of a life this brass has had. Interestingly it came primed. The sticker on it indicated it was last loaded in Y2K. No telling if that was referring to a full load or the primer only how I got it.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

It’s possible that the necks have been "worked" ie: turned, as sizing down brass ( I know it’s not by much) tends to make the necks thicker by a bit. If you can get some more brass and form that, it may answer all the questions. Good luck with the process and keep us informed
gumpy

 

[Riflecrank]

Yes, custom dies might have been made to fit the dummies sent to CH4D,
and originally these might have been done with brass that had been necked down
which would increase the neck wall thickness.
Who knows, maybe even a dummy with a cast bullet was involved,
and a cast bullet might have been 0.418" diameter for best accuracy.

Multiple factors could be at play.
Old brass could have had some inside neck reaming or outside neck turning.
Uniforming gone astray ?

Maybe some new brass will sort it all out.

Rechambering to .416 Dakota with matching reamer and Redding dies will sort it out for sure.
Use properly head stamped brass for .416 Dakota or fire-form 404Jeffery.
As simple as re-chambering.
No barrel swapping.

 

[Rez Exelon]

Yes, custom dies might have been made to fit the dummies sent to CH4D,
and originally these might have been done with brass that had been necked down
which would increase the neck wall thickness.
Who knows, maybe even a dummy with a cast bullet was involved,
and a cast bullet might have been 0.418" diameter for best accuracy.

Multiple factors could be at play.
Old brass could have had some inside neck reaming or outside neck turning.
Uniforming gone astray ?

Maybe some new brass will sort it all out.

Rechambering to .416 Dakota with matching reamer and Redding dies will sort it out for sure.
Use properly head stamped brass for .416 Dakota or fire-form 404Jeffery.
As simple as re-chambering.
No barrel swapping.

Thankfully this project is a labor of love and not one I have a deadline for. I mean, outside the whole "it's drive me crazy because I want to actually shoot it" part. But once I get the brass I betcha I'll have a much better idea of what's going to happen. I swung by my local reloading shop where the owner is about the only really big bore guy I know in my town but he wasn't around. That might be my best shot at finding some brass locally (even if he'd only allow me to borrow it to measure) for a piece of the puzzle.

In the meantime I suppose I need to circle back to the Ruger No 1 "do I need to put a higher power spring in" question. Mainly because I tried taking that out and had terrible success trying to get the thing to fire on a CCI250 primer. Looking into that, it seems they are one of the hardest primers on the market, but I'd have hoped they'd light off anyways. The majority of my LRM is Fed215's but I'd be sad if I can't use the 250's just to burn them off at minimum.

 

[Rez Exelon]

Man oh man I must have pissed off the universe. Here's the play by play.

1. Received three boxes of 404 Jeffery factory fresh Hornady ammo. Selected one round.

2. Let the first prayer commence for I am about to perform an unholy act.

3. Forgive me father for I have sinned.

4. Prayers said a second time. I am going to engage the sizing dies.

5. "Feel test" - compared to the other brass, I could definitely feel positive engagement between the brass and the die. Visually you can tell that the shoulder has been shorted and is a steeper angle. Now, measurement time. This part is boring but the brass measured .014 thickness... Compared to .0107 of the old brass. So far looking pretty positive!

 

[Rez Exelon]

6. The all important "Does it work" question.

Short answer? No. At least not how I would hope. Left out of step 5 was the critical ID measurement ... Which was .416. and even though it's got a bit more tension, I can push the bullet in by hand and pull it out by hand. This picture shows me having "seated" it with my thumb.

And I could pull it out easy enough too. So unless this is designed to have no neck tension and relies on a crimp die I don't have, then this is a fail. Back to CH4D for follow-up.

Or the hammer option of make up three rounds using the 416 Ruger die to get tension, fire them off and send the empties to someone to make a new die. Because with the brand new brass, I would think that the die being in spec would not perform at all like this.

I mean, I wanted to hope it would be better, but considering the 416 Ruger die gives the necks enough tension to hold, and the new brass doesn't make enough difference to hold, I think I have to conclude the die is no bueno.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

I would agree with you there, I wonder if, as someone else suggested, if the die was made for oversized lead projectiles. It may be also that the original owner had a modified factory crimp die that you didn’t get. We may never know. If it was up to me I would get a new die. At least you can shoot it as a single shot for now.
gumpy

 

[Riflecrank]

Yep, some riflecrank might have been cranky enough to have set it all up
using .418"-diameter hardcast, gas-checked bullets of about 400-gr weight.

Have you checked the twist rate of the barrel ?
A slower than usual twist rate might be a clue that it was possibly designed for cast lead bullets.
SAAMI and CIP both say 1:16.54"or 420 mm for the .416 Rigby
SAAMI says 1:14" for the .416 barrels on Remington, Ruger, and Weatherby chamberings.

If you have a .416"-diameter barrel groove, a .418" hardcast bullet will give you best accuracy.
A hardcast, gas-checked, LFN from LBT of .418"/410-grain specification would turn my crank for a trial if I had your rifle.

Or see if you can get a Lee Factory Crimp die made from your dummies using the .416 Ruger or .416 Rigby dies on your fire-formed brass,
while waiting for a new set of dies from CH4D,
if you are sticking with .416" jacketed and monometal.

Veral Smith was his name, at LBT, IIRC, if he is still in business.
He sent me a soft lead slug to slug the throat on my .395 Tatanka,
I mailed the slug back to him, bullet was fitted to throat that way too.
My mould was for .396" diameter in clip-on wheel weight alloy, LFN-GC, 410 grains.
Casting in BHN25 alloy would make the bullets bigger (and lighter) and I could size them to 0.397"
after powder coat painting them, or with grease groove lube, either way.

Accurate Molds lists some bullets in their catalog for both .416" and .418" diameter with clip-on wheel weight alloy.

That would turn my riflecrank for a trial with your current dies and rifle with Hornady brass.
Hornady makes a gas check for .416-cal bullets, to make this easy.
I had to get a special, smaller gas check from Gator Gas Checks, IIRC, for my .395-caliber wildcats.

If you go the cast bullet route you will need sizing dies, push-through dies from LEE or CH4D.
Lee will do but CH4D might be higher quality, take longer, and cost more !
You will want both a .417" and a .418" bullet sizing diameter.
Hardcast from the Accurate Molds mould shown above might be 0.419" to .420" diameter.
The harder alloys may spring back a thou, so push it through a .417" and it comes out .418" to stay.

 

[Rez Exelon]

That is a really interesting write up. I've definitely not considered the angle of a cast bullet. Looking around I found this as the first one that popped up:

.418 416 Cal, 350 gr FP - SC, Hunters Supply

Hunters Supply Slick Coat 416 Cal, 350 grain Flat Point Diameter .418 OAL

www.hunters-supply.com

Thinking out loud here but if I've got a bullet at .418, neck thickness of .028 +/- .001 that does seem to get to a 416 spec of .447 (+/- .001). I suppose before ordering dies then I need to remove the muzzle brake and slug the thing to get true measurements there.

 

[Riflecrank]

That looks like a good one to try.
The clear-coat I have heard of, like a clear powder-coat paint.
If the alloy is hard enough the clear-coated plain base will be your gas check.
Try low velocity, reduced loads first, like with AA-5744 with half-full case (50% LR/net fill, no filler on top of that) then move on to higher velocity and see how accuracy does.
Hard alloy bullets of .418" diameter will give about same velocity for a given powder charge as .416" jacketed bullets of same weight.

 

[Rez Exelon]

So, thread from the dead post here, but, well, I've been busy. Way to much going on in life, so this project and it's friends the 416 Rem and 416 Taylor have all been on hiatus.

For better or worse our house hold is going through a complete top to bottom "get rid of excess stuff, and sort though what we have" project at the moment and that found me left unattended in the garage. As I sorted through some stuff I found that I had a Holosun 507c that I forgot about and obviously had to sort that straight onto a Walter PDP. While then the I found a Streamlight TLR9 and so I couldn't leave the other Walter without a date to the prom so I put that on.

As I started working through the workbench I found some .431 lead bullets I'd picked up months ago. Well, obviously we're cleaning the house so I can't leave them there. I have to actually slug the barrel with one of them. Now I'm going to skip a fair amount of the story here because it's late and I'm tired but long story short I beat that thing through the barrel until it plunked out the other side.

And what did I find? Bore diameter is ..... .415 +/-.005.

That's measured on the raised parts of the slug left by the grooves, and I didn't measure lower areas left by the lands. Now having taken about 6 months off, I took the calipers to the bullets I have which also measured about .415. And then I took them to the expander ball of the dies I have which also measured .415.

So unless I'm missing something, something is wrong somewhere along the path. And heck, it could be my calipers --- tomorrow I'll likely get out the fancy ones and check my homework from this evening. But at this point unless I'm missing something else to try along the way, then going with the .418 cast from post 92 above might be the only real easy solution to getting. But would the .003 difference be too much between bore diameter and bullet?

Now, there is still the option of the following process:
1. Size with the current C4HD die that does really seem to do anything worth while.
2. Do a second sizing using a 416 Ruger die I have. For this, I have to rather carefully adjust the die so that it's juuuuust sizing the neck without touching the shoulder. This does give it enough neck tension to hold the bullet though.
3. Seat the bullet.

Now, that process got me rounds that wouldn't fall apart when chambering anyways, but I've not fired any of them to date. So I guess I'm not yet to the point of deciding how much I wanna roll that dice yet.

 

[deewayne2003]

So, thread from the dead post here, but, well, I've been busy. Way to much going on in life, so this project and it's friends the 416 Rem and 416 Taylor have all been on hiatus.

For better or worse our house hold is going through a complete top to bottom "get rid of excess stuff, and sort though what we have" project at the moment and that found me left unattended in the garage. As I sorted through some stuff I found that I had a Holosun 507c that I forgot about and obviously had to sort that straight onto a Walter PDP. While then the I found a Streamlight TLR9 and so I couldn't leave the other Walter without a date to the prom so I put that on.

As I started working through the workbench I found some .431 lead bullets I'd picked up months ago. Well, obviously we're cleaning the house so I can't leave them there. I have to actually slug the barrel with one of them. Now I'm going to skip a fair amount of the story here because it's late and I'm tired but long story short I beat that thing through the barrel until it plunked out the other side.

And what did I find? Bore diameter is ..... .415 +/-.005.

That's measured on the raised parts of the slug left by the grooves, and I didn't measure lower areas left by the lands. Now having taken about 6 months off, I took the calipers to the bullets I have which also measured about .415. And then I took them to the expander ball of the dies I have which also measured .415.

So unless I'm missing something, something is wrong somewhere along the path. And heck, it could be my calipers --- tomorrow I'll likely get out the fancy ones and check my homework from this evening. But at this point unless I'm missing something else to try along the way, then going with the .418 cast from post 92 above might be the only real easy solution to getting. But would the .003 difference be too much between bore diameter and bullet?

Now, there is still the option of the following process:
1. Size with the current C4HD die that does really seem to do anything worth while.
2. Do a second sizing using a 416 Ruger die I have. For this, I have to rather carefully adjust the die so that it's juuuuust sizing the neck without touching the shoulder. This does give it enough neck tension to hold the bullet though.
3. Seat the bullet.

Now, that process got me rounds that wouldn't fall apart when chambering anyways, but I've not fired any of them to date. So I guess I'm not yet to the point of deciding how much I wanna roll that dice yet.

Option #4.... Pull the barrel and use it as a tomato stake and start over with a caliber that actually exists.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Option #4.... Pull the barrel and use it as a tomato stake and start over with a caliber that actually exists.

That would be my choice. We all want to be unique (like the barrista at Starbucks with purple, pink, and green hair) but there is a line in the sand where it can become impractical (like when she's trying to find a date of the opposite sex).

 

[Rez Exelon]

Option #4.... Pull the barrel and use it as a tomato stake and start over with a caliber that actually exists.

I mean sure... That's an option. But as much of a pita as this is so far it's still an interesting project that is teaching me new stuff. So I got that going for me.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

You could just get a 417 sizer die and run the 418 bullets through that if you are worried about the 1-2thou oversize
Gumpy

 

[Rez Exelon]

Not having ever deviated from the typical bullet sizing for a caliber... Would the slight extra size really make that much difference? Truth be told I have no idea.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Cast Lead is usually 1 to2 thou over size and is squeezed down in the bore, coated projectiles will size easily and can be driven fast.
Gumpy