416 Rem Mag vs 404 Jeffrey

[TOBY458]

I've often wondered just why the 404 Jeffrey is held with so much more high regard than the 416 Remington Mag.
The 404 is thought to be the Holy Grail, and the 416 RM is barely more respected than the 458 Win Mag.

They both have similar case capacity. They both shoot 400 grain bullets at 2250-2350 fps with no pressure problems whatsoever.
They both can shoot 400 grain bullets at 2400 fps with somewhat higher pressure loads.
They both can shoot 430-450 grain bullets at 2200+ fps with no pressure problems.
Both can be shot comfortably in similar weight rifles.
And I'm sure there are more valid comparisons.

So, my question is.....if the 404 is supposed to be so much better than the 416 RM, why are there hardly any guns made for it?
If the 404 is the holy grail, why in the world would Winchester or some more of the manufacturers not chamber for it? Especially since it's so popular, and would virtually fly off the shelf!
Is it because it's rare and hard to find, that it's thought of so highly?

I know the 404 definitely has history on it's side, but a lot of that history was made by game department folks who simply shot the 404 because that's what they were issued.
If the 416 RM was around back then, would it have been used just as readily as the 404, since they are virtually identical in performance?

Pot stirred.....And Go!

 

[Bullthrower338]

Oh Boy!

 

[Jfet]

I think the 416RM is better because I own one.

So in this kinder gentler time of history, I don’t want to have the 404 people feeling inadequate. I need to go buy a 404.

 

[BnC 04]

Done did it now Toby
Fine I will play along...I like the sound of Jeffery over Remington, just rolls off ones lips in a proper manner. Own both and won't trade/sell either.

 

[colorado]

Both inferior to the 416 Rigby ...

 

[AZDAVE]

For africa the history of the 404 is one that was issued and used by PH's, while the 416 Rigby was written about but writers. The 404 did all the heavy lifting for years.There were more 404 produced as it could be made to work in a standard mauser 98 action much easier than the 416 rigby. The 416 Rigby was a proprietary round and the 404 was opened up to the whole gun trade both British and continental gunsmiths and companies. The 416 REM is an american round that never found the same level of acceptance in Africa history. All three will do the job. There will will always be a soft spot for historical rounds. As for manufactures building DG rifles, the current group of bigger names the DG market is always a small one and doesn'r bring in the $$$ that the entry level buy it crowd will ever spend the dollars to own. I have nothing against the 416 REM but I have a 416 Rigby and building a 404 Jeff currently. and Some guy named Toby sold me a 416 Ruger so I would have a regular long action DG round

 

[TOBY458]

Both inferior to the 416 Rigby ...

Which is inferior to the 450 Rigby.....which is inferior to the 500 Jeffrey...
Which reminds me.....wasn't I supposed to be bidding on a 450 Rigby tonight??? Lol!

 

[TOBY458]

For africa the history of the 404 is one that was issued and used by PH's, while the 416 Rigby was written about but writers. The 404 did all the heavy lifting for years.There were more 404 produced as it could be made to work in a standard mauser 98 action much easier than the 416 rigby. The 416 Rigby was a proprietary round and the 404 was opened up to the whole gun trade both British and continental gunsmiths and companies. The 416 REM is an american round that never found the same level of acceptance in Africa history. All three will do the job. There will will always be a soft spot for historical rounds. As for manufactures building DG rifles, the current group of bigger names the DG market is always a small one and doesn'r bring in the $$$ that the entry level buy it crowd will ever spend the dollars to own. I have nothing against the 416 REM but I have a 416 Rigby and building a 404 Jeff currently. and Some guy named Toby sold me a 416 Ruger so I would have a regular long action DG round

Is it true that you like 40 cal rifles?

 

[AZDAVE]

Yes that is true but like my 450/400 best

 

[BeeMaa]

Yes that is true but like my 450/400 best

Better watch it...your 416 and 404 will get jealous.
Could be a 40 caliber uprising.

 

[ve7poi]

416 Rem high pressure belted case, 416 Rigby 2400 fs no belt low pressure can be loaded hotter but why? 450-400 rimmed case beautiful double rifle cartridge
404 Jeffery 400 gr. at 2300 get the job done factory now over 2400fps no belt.
Larger dia bullet and at DG ranges BC means nada also can be loaded with 450 gr woodleigh softs or solids at 2200+FPS what’s not to like

 

[Jfet]

For africa the history of the 404 is one that was issued and used by PH's, while the 416 Rigby was written about but writers. The 404 did all the heavy lifting for years.

This leads to the question, why is the 404 not the heavy lifter today? If it was not for this forum, I would not be familiar with this caliber.

 

[TOBY458]

416 Rem high pressure belted case, 416 Rigby 2400 fs no belt low pressure can be loaded hotter but why? 450-400 rimmed case beautiful double rifle cartridge
404 Jeffery 400 gr. at 2300 get the job done factory now over 2400fps no belt.
Larger dia bullet and at DG ranges BC means nada also can be loaded with 450 gr woodleigh softs or solids at 2200+FPS what’s not to like

Why do you say high pressure for the 416 RM? Loaded to the same velocity as the 404, it's not high pressure at all. The case capacity of the two rounds are not that far apart.

 

[AZDAVE]

Today there are so many other rounds that have made it into the field that are all in the same power band. When Kynoch quit loading for all the old classics in the 60's many of the old rounds 404 included basically ran out of available round to feed their old rifles. The 458WM, 416 rem, and a host of 40Cal wildcats etc added to the available rifles that you could get ammo for. Ruger and several other manufactures and custom rifle gunsmiths brought the 404 and others back from obscurity (Including my 450/400). I have always been a history buff so the old rounds and rifles hold more draw to me than any of the stuff that showed up after 1913.

 

[JakeH]

Us hunters are a sentimental bunch and as such, the .404 Jefffery brings up the images of “Old Africa”, Teddy Roosevelt, Hemingway, Ruark, Selby, Bell, et al. The .416 Remington Magnum brings to mind...the late 80’s. Not exactly the most romanticized time in hunting.

And the .404 Jeffery has spawned a huge number or derivatives. The WSM, WSSM, RUM, Dakota, and Nosler families all are direct descendants of the venerable .404.

 

[Dirtdart]

.416 diameter 400 gr. bullet @ 2150 - 2300+ FPS travels by many names, Rigby, Taylor, Remington, and Ruger are just some of them.
I sometimes will show a bias for one over the other because of personal experience hand loading a certain caliber and achieving good results with accuracy/rifle combo. I keep it on the low end for pressure regardless of caliber I am loading.
The finest handling .40+ cal rifle I own happens to be in .416 Remington and everytime I pick it up I wish it was a .404 Jeffery? My .416 Remington and .404 shoot plenty accurate with identical powder charges. The belt on the case of my .416 Remington doesn't bother me any more than the belt on my .375 H&H.

 

[Capt_Oscar]

Uhmmm…. so Montana Rifle Co (site sponsor too) offers the 404 Jeffery as standard factory production. They offer the other fun 40s too. I did just order the 404. I absolutely love the way it shoots in another rifle platform I have in my collection. As such, it was a no-brainer to order another. I've shot the 416 Rigby, it seems more sharp to me. The 404 seems more like a friendly shove. Maybe my gun just fits me better?? I have not shot the 416 RM. At this point, I don't see any reason to. When it comes to DG... I'd rather have controlled round feed and no belt. I like the smooth cycling and low chance of a round jamming up. If I could afford a nice double I'd probably have a 500NE and just enjoy life.

 

[flatwater bill]

Look at a Cogswell and Harrison rifle in 404 and compare with a Rem 700 in 416 Rem............................the romantic favorite is pretty obvious. As to the popularity.....I don't know............FWB

 

[TOBY458]

Uhmmm…. so Montana Rifle Co (site sponsor too) offers the 404 Jeffery as standard factory production. They offer the other fun 40s too. I did just order the 404. I absolutely love the way it shoots in another rifle platform I have in my collection. As such, it was a no-brainer to order another. I've shot the 416 Rigby, it seems more sharp to me. The 404 seems more like a friendly shove. Maybe my gun just fits me better?? I have not shot the 416 RM. At this point, I don't see any reason to. When it comes to DG... I'd rather have controlled round feed and no belt. I like the smooth cycling and low chance of a round jamming up. If I could afford a nice double I'd probably have a 500NE and just enjoy life.

Do you own a 375 H&H with the dreaded belt?

 

[TOBY458]

Look at a Cogswell and Harrison rifle in 404 and compare with a Rem 700 in 416 Rem............................the romantic favorite is pretty obvious. As to the popularity.....I don't know............FWB

The 416 RM is offered and has been offered in many more rifles than the Rem 700. The Dakota 76 just to name one notable example. It's not really about the rifle. It's more about the two calibers being virtually the same. Any rifle can be chambered in either caliber. But the 416 RM is more easily adapted to most actions than the 404 is.