416 Rem Mag vs 404 Jeffrey

[Newboomer]

All this ballistics info is very interesting but the $ 64 question for me is how do they compare in the field? ie.: How do they stack up for range for pg? How great a variety of bullets? I know each is considered primarily a dg rifle but some of us like one with the ability to do double duty as a pg gun ( like my favorite, the 375HH). Which has the advantage there? Weight of the gun is not an issue and I'm not overly recoil sensitive. I do prefer crf.
Thoughts, opinions, experience?

 

[lwaters]

All this ballistics info is very interesting but the $ 64 question for me is how do they compare in the field? ie.: How do they stack up for range for pg? How great a variety of bullets? I know each is considered primarily a dg rifle but some of us like one with the ability to do double duty as a pg gun ( like my favorite, the 375HH). Which has the advantage there? Weight of the gun is not an issue and I'm not overly recoil sensitive. I do prefer crf.
Thoughts, opinions, experience?

Unless someone can show me a better plains game bullet. The 416 Rigby Remington or Ruger win with the 350 gr. TTSX. BC .444.

 

[TTundra]

Think we're splitting hairs when we talk about felt recoil between a 400 gr bullet at 2100 FPS from a 416RM vs 404J....when you're already into the 40#+ range I don't think I could separate out.

As for recoil velocity, both shooting a 400 gr cartridge at the required powder charge to send both at 2100 fps...I think you may be at 1fps, possibly 1.5fps difference.


I for one have a love for the nostalgia of the older cartridges. 416 Rigby has a ring to it thats speaks a little louder to me than 416 Remington Magnum...even with the longer maneuver of the bolt.

 

[TOBY458]

On another note. Take a look at this new stock I got for my 416 Ruger today. Looks pretty good for a drag through the thorns, bang around in the bakkie, carry all day rifle, doesn't it? Rifle weight 7lbs 15oz.

 

[lwaters]

Is that a McMillan stock? Did it just drop in without any fitting? I have a 375 Ruger Alaskan but I kind of like the hogue stock.

 

[TOBY458]

Unless someone can show me a better plains game bullet. The 416 Rigby Remington or Ruger win with the 350 gr. TTSX. BC .444.

I think you just hit the nail on the head. It's all about bullet selection, more than any tiny fraction of recoil difference. The 416 definitely is easier to feed, with much more selection over the spectrum of different bullet makers.
In the end, I think they're both great calibers. I see them as equals for all intents and purposes. I'm glad this thread has shed some light on the 404, and may have sparked some interest with some members who had never given it any thought.

 

[TOBY458]

Is that a McMillan stock? Did it just drop in without any fitting? I have a 375 Ruger Alaskan but I kind of like the hogue stock.

No. It's an H-S Precision. I bought it from a company called Stockys. They have them in stock and ready to ship. Several different colors to choose from for $400.00.
And yes, it just dropped in with no fitting needed. Feels better than the Hogue factory stock. Slimmer forend.

 

[TOBY458]

If I ever do buy a 404, and I'm sure I will one day. The Heym that's used in this video is at the top of my list!

 

[stug]

My .404 uses 84gr H4350 and gives 2350fps, JBM says (10lb rifle) the recoil is 56.5 ft.lbs and 19.1 ft/s recoil velocity and 5.9lb.s recoil impulse.

 

[MartyJ]

When shooting game, you don't feel the recoil . . .
I've been married twice, I'm numb to recoil anyway.
I love the romance and nostalgia of
African cartridges, but I hunt with a Blaser R93, so the Remington gets my vote.

Sent from my SM-G965U using AfricaHunting mobile app

 

[TOBY458]

My .404 uses 84gr H4350 and gives 2350fps, JBM says (10lb rifle) the recoil is 56.5 ft.lbs and 19.1 ft/s recoil velocity and 5.9lb.s recoil impulse.

 

[TOBY458]

Toby, according to QuickLoad I can push the velocity of a 404 Jeffery up to 2366 FPS with a 400 Gr bullet and still stay below the max. recommended pressure. That is exactly 7 Ft. per. sec. slower than the 416 Remington. There is no getting around the gentler push of the 404 Jeffery compared to the thump of the Remington. Sorry!!

All of my comparisons are made using H4350 Powder. I'll be happy to compare your favorite load providing your powder of choice is listed on QuickLoad.

Art
Just for kicks. Run your load on this calculator.

 

[Shootist43]

This "formula" negates the effect of the higher pressure involved with the 416 Rem. That is one of the missing factors mentioned on their website. The 20% increase in pressure has to be accounted for somewhere. That is the "thump" not the "shove" I mentioned previously.

 

[colorado]

Recoil calculators are great and I use them, but have any of you chronographed your 404 or 416 rounds? You might find the velocities from factory ammo between the two very similar and I"m guessing less than advertised.

 

[Shootist43]

Good point, my 404 Jeffery loads were chronographed. Three shots 2300 FPS, 2309 FPs and 2306 Fps.

 

[TOBY458]

My hand loads were chronographed as well. 3 rounds @ 2347 average.

 

[TOBY458]

This "formula" negates the effect of the higher pressure involved with the 416 Rem. That is one of the missing factors mentioned on their website. The 20% increase in pressure has to be accounted for somewhere. That is the "thump" not the "shove" I mentioned previously.

Are you sure you can "feel" pressure??? I'm gonna get you on this eventually Art!

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Recoil calculators are great and I use them, but have any of you chronographed your 404 or 416 rounds? You might find the velocities from factory ammo between the two very similar and I"m guessing less than advertised.

404 Factory ammo 2 shot results, 23.5: Krieger barrel w/ 1-16 twist:

Hornady 400 gr DGX: 2381 and 2344 fps, 2362 fps avg, SD 26.1

Swift 400 gr A-Frame: 2346 and 2416 fps, 2381 fps avg, SD 49.1


404 Hand loads, 2 shots, all w/ 400 gr Swift A-Frame & H4350:

80 grs: 2214 and 2204 fps

82 grs: 2276 and 2278 fps

84 grs: 2341 and 2342 fps

 

[TOBY458]

404 Factory ammo 2 shot results, 23.5: Krieger barrel w/ 1-16 twist:

Hornady 400 gr DGX: 2381 and 2344 fps, 2362 fps avg, SD 26.1

Swift 400 gr A-Frame: 2346 and 2416 fps, 2381 fps avg, SD 49.1


404 Hand loads, 2 shots, all w/ 400 gr Swift A-Frame & H4350:

80 grs: 2214 and 2204 fps

82 grs: 2276 and 2278 fps

84 grs: 2341 and 2342 fps

My 416 RM loads that do the same velocity as your 84gr load use only 77 grains of Varget. I know I'm definitely doing higher pressure, but it's far from a max load. I'm not knocking the 404 at all in this thread, I'm just still trying to wrap my head around the talk of a 416RM being an extreme high pressure load, when it's clearly not. I also don't understand how a cartridge with a larger powder capacity, a bigger case head (which produces more case head thrust on the action) and a cartridge that has to burn way more powder to do the same velocity, is said to have way less recoil than the 416RM. It just doesn't make sense.
With that said, I still would like to have a 404, just because I like the history and the way that big, long sloping cartridge looks.
Reminds me of a big ole 30/30 with no rim!

 

[colorado]

Thanks all I chrono all my 500 Jeffery handloads, too poor to buy factory my hunting load is 570g TSX at 2310 fps from a 24" barrel