45-70 dangerous game?

[Tundra Tiger]

"a CEB will take an texas heart shot and leave the chest."

Indeed. On my last trip I put one in the chest of a large black wildebeest bull and exited by the arse. On my first trip I shot a buffalo in the same place and it almost exited the hindquarter.

 

[HankBuck]

Modern 45-70 levers can handle the Buffalo Bore / CEB loadings.

The choice of bullet is INSANELY IMPORTANT. The enormously important key IS NOT *most* factory ammo, it is DG ammo. It cannot be understated we are talking DG ammo.

I'm only aware of a single factory loading from Buffalo Bore (sorry if there are others), or buy CEBs and roll your own. Factory ammo can blow up on a hog; a CEB will take an texas heart shot and leave the chest. Factory 45-70 loadings go from trapdoor through JHPs, flex tips, and tons of stuff in between.

Quite a few experts (who have weighed in here) have shot far more DG than I, and have done true postmortems with these DG solids. They work without caveat. My own CEBs in the handgun going 500 fps less have crunched through everything, including the Buff I posted earlier, a large giraffe, moose, several bears, etc... I wouldn't try that with a flex tip or any other 45-70 ammo.

I absolutely believe your 45-70 experience with any other loadings. I've seen it first hand when something off the shelf, instead of dedicated DG ammo is used. Not hard cast, not flex tips, not JHP... DG solids.

@akrifleman - you are right about “choice of bullet…” being critical with .45-70 and also right that Hornady’s LeverEvolution “flex tip” 325 gr @2000 fps is NOT good for Dangerous Game….it will Not penetrate enough (although I’ve found it great on deer under 150 yards and the recoil is much less then Buffalo Bore)). I believe only a hard cast or similar style bullet delivers the penetration needed for DG.

 

[akrifleman]

@akrifleman - you are right about “choice of bullet…” being critical with .45-70 and also right that Hornady’s LeverEvolution “flex tip” 325 gr @2000 fps is NOT good for Dangerous Game….it will Not penetrate enough (although I’ve found it great on deer under 150 yards and the recoil is much less then Buffalo Bore)). I believe only a hard cast or similar style bullet delivers the penetration needed for DG.

Perhaps if I was a better caster. I've had too many shatter. It's better when I annealed the tips, but I'll stick with CEBs or Lehigh. They've never failed no matter where I hit.

 

[JimP]

@akrifleman - you are right about “choice of bullet…” being critical with .45-70 and also right that Hornady’s LeverEvolution “flex tip” 325 gr @2000 fps is NOT good for Dangerous Game….it will Not penetrate enough (although I’ve found it great on deer under 150 yards and the recoil is much less then Buffalo Bore)). I believe only a hard cast or similar style bullet delivers the penetration needed for DG.

That's the problem with most that are saying that you don't get the penentration with a 45-70. Odds are they are experiencing factory loads with soft bullets and because of the liability laws the cartridge manufacturer has no idea if you are shooting it out of a vintage trap door Springfield or a Ruger #1, so they load it for the trapdoor.

I haven't looked at a box of the Buffalo Bore cartridge but I am sure that there is a huge disclaimer and caution on what rifles they are to be used in.

 

[CZDiesel]

I’m not sure what all the hubbub is over a 45-70 hunting dangerous game is! Everyone knows that if you are to hunt dangerous game with a Lever Action it needs to be a 405 Win in a 1895! Come on Teddy sorted this out 115 years ago

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I’m not sure what all the hubbub is over a 45-70 hunting dangerous game is! Everyone knows that if you are to hunt dangerous game with a Lever Action it needs to be a 405 Win in a 1895! Come on Teddy sorted this out 115 years ago

One is on my wish list good sir.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Bears in North America yes, Cape Buffalo in Africa no.

A hot 45-70 load produces about the same energy as a 180gr 30.06, with far worse sectional density.

A lot of people confuse something that can be done with something that should be done.

 

[Brian]

I have built a nice little cape buffalo rifle in 45-70 that I want to try out on cape buffalo but always end up taking a different rifle instead.

It's a TC Encore with a 24", 45-70 barrel and a custom stock designed for the recoil. I realize that a single shot rifle in 45-70 is a perfect storm for cape buffalo, What could go wrong? But I love hunting cape buffalo with a single shot. It's the spirit of it. It focuses the mind. It tends to help me keep in the present moment.

My sight for this application is Holosun Green Dot. My old eyes work ok with this optic. I like to get within 50 yds. for my first shot, that way my first shot is usually my only shot.

For bullets I still have about 100 rounds of NorthFork .458 cal., 400 grain expanding bullet left from past projects. They are very tough bullets and are engineered for 458 Lott velocities on cape buffalo. I am going for a much lower MV of 2,000 fps so I have milled some of the pointed nose off flat and the 400 grain bullet now weighs 380 grains. and I will be able to run them at about 2,000 fps without much of a fuss.
Whadda ya think? No snickering please.
I don't know when I will hunt with them, hopefully next year. I think that they will be another "dead right there" bullet. I will post the results. Brian

 

[akrifleman]

I have built a nice little cape buffalo rifle in 45-70 that I want to try out on cape buffalo but always end up taking a different rifle instead.

It's a TC Encore with a 24", 45-70 barrel and a custom stock designed for the recoil. I realize that a single shot rifle in 45-70 is a perfect storm for cape buffalo, What could go wrong? But I love hunting cape buffalo with a single shot. It's the spirit of it. It focuses the mind. It tends to help me keep in the present moment.

My sight for this application is Holosun Green Dot. My old eyes work ok with this optic. I like to get within 50 yds. for my first shot, that way my first shot is usually my only shot.

For bullets I still have about 100 rounds of NorthFork .458 cal., 400 grain expanding bullet left from past projects. They are very tough bullets and are engineered for 458 Lott velocities on cape buffalo. I am going for a much lower MV of 2,000 fps so I have milled some of the pointed nose off flat and the 400 grain bullet now weighs 380 grains. and I will be able to run them at about 2,000 fps without much of a fuss.
Whadda ya think? No snickering please.
I don't know when I will hunt with them, hopefully next year. I think that they will be another "dead right there" bullet. I will post the results. Brian

I don't think anyone can speak to a modified bullet. I'd sure want to try them on wet newspaper and a couple hogs first.

 

[Tradmark]

Tested ceb 400 gr solids in a 500 smith and wesson on a cape buff in africa and the penetrated thru the buff at every angle i tried and it left a good wound channel. Shot from a bighorn armory model 89 at 1780fps. Never redlined it and didnt need to. If it works and works repeatedly i would say its appropriate. Itll take another 100 years for the hunting community as a whole to admit and accept its the bullet. Look, it only took 40 years for it to be fully accepted lighter solid copper hollow points out penetrate everything else even if they are lighter. Silly

 

[Brian]

I don't think anyone can speak to a modified bullet. I'd sure want to try them on wet newspaper and a couple hogs first.

You are sensible.

I will go for a buffalo for the first test.

 

[HankBuck]

That's the problem with most that are saying that you don't get the penentration with a 45-70. Odds are they are experiencing factory loads with soft bullets and because of the liability laws the cartridge manufacturer has no idea if you are shooting it out of a vintage trap door Springfield or a Ruger #1, so they load it for the trapdoor.

I haven't looked at a box of the Buffalo Bore cartridge but I am sure that there is a huge disclaimer and caution on what rifles they are to be used in.

@JimP - you are correct - every Box of Buffalo Bore states a warning very clearly that ONLY newer rifles: Marlin 1895 etc… and they get a lot of phone calls from people “double checking” if the ammo is Safe in their rifle. Once you shoot a .45-70 Buffalo Bore load you will know “instantly” it has POWER

 

[HankBuck]

A lot of people confuse something that can be done with something that should be done.

@Doug Hamilton and a lot of Hunters read too much and shoot too little

 

[Muskox]

There are countless threads where folks have done this.

You can bitch about it, but people do it every year.

There are a lot of dead buffalo, lions, bears and a few elephants taken by the 45-70.

Maybe it's not the best, but certainly works.

A lot of people who have never killed anything will spend hours saying it doesn't work.

It has worked for over 100 years, and probably works better today than it did in the 1800's as bullet quality has increased and rifles are more accurate.

 

[HankBuck]

There are countless threads where folks have done this.

You can bitch about it, but people do it every year.

There are a lot of dead buffalo, lions, bears and a few elephants taken by the 45-70.

Maybe it's not the best, but certainly works.

A lot of people who have never killed anything will spend hours saying it doesn't work.

It has worked for over 100 years, and probably works better today than it did in the 1800's as bullet quality has increased and rifles are more accurate.

@Muskox - agree and since there is No such thing as a “Best rifle” for Buffalo the .45-70 is likely near the “middle” regarding capability even though it may not be commonly used. I put much more credibility in PH’s that have recommended .45-70 and seen it used and also in other Hunters that have killed buffalo with .45-70 then “ballistic charts” quoted by those that read a lot but hunt a little. My PH liked the .45-70 for buff and I wish I used mine vs. the .470 NE I purchased just for my Safari and shot poorly with. Also, the asst. PH carried a Marlin lever action in .45-70 as his back-up rifle, my PH carried a .416 Rem Mag “push feed” bolt

 

[JimP]

There are countless threads where folks have done this.

You can bitch about it, but people do it every year.

There are a lot of dead buffalo, lions, bears and a few elephants taken by the 45-70.

Maybe it's not the best, but certainly works.

A lot of people who have never killed anything will spend hours saying it doesn't work.

It has worked for over 100 years, and probably works better today than it did in the 1800's as bullet quality has increased and rifles are more accurate.

It is much like a parent telling a young kid that they can't do something, then that kid finds out for themselves that what the parent told them was impossible was indeed possible.

 

[Muskox]

It is much like a parent telling a young kid that they can't do something, then that kid finds out for themselves that what the parent told them was impossible was indeed possible.

Bloody hell yes.

 

[pilar]

It is much like a parent telling a young kid that they can't do something, then that kid finds out for themselves that what the parent told them was impossible was indeed possible.

Like wearing gasoline soaked underwear
While barbecuing

 

[Brian]

North Fork 400 grain, .458 cal bullets.

The two on the left are not modified, the two on the right have their noses milled off a bit, resulting weight is 383 grains.

See how thick the jacket is? These bullets are tougher than boiled owl poop. They are actually too tough for the average size African undulate and any lion and apparently tend to penetrate right through, so North Fork modified this excellent bullet to expand more/easier for plains game and Lion, They called it the Lion Load.

Being designed to work at the highest .458 velocities I am confident that this modified bullet will be "good to go" in my 45-70 running at about 2,000 fps.

Also, check out the fine driving bands. Brian

 

[Brian]

Tested ceb 400 gr solids in a 500 smith and wesson on a cape buff in africa and the penetrated thru the buff at every angle i tried and it left a good wound channel. Shot from a bighorn armory model 89 at 1780fps. Never redlined it and didnt need to. If it works and works repeatedly i would say its appropriate. Itll take another 100 years for the hunting community as a whole to admit and accept its the bullet. Look, it only took 40 years for it to be fully accepted lighter solid copper hollow points out penetrate everything else even if they are lighter. Silly

Tredmark, Good post.
People have a hard time thinking their way out of old, but popular concept.

This is my story about accepting new ideas.

Out of curiosity, and inspired by the B&M Rifles and Cartridges boys I took an old traditional cartridge case, 50-110 Winchester, that looked pretty good and I necked it down to true .500 cal from .510 cal. MGM made me a 24" barrel fro my TC Encore using my Mason chamber reamer.

I wanted a .500 cal so that I could use a bullet from the CEB .500S&W selection of bullets. This was all about an upcoming cape buffalo hunt and I selected a .410 grain .500 cal CEB Safari Raptor pistol bullet. ( Similar to what you did.)

During my load development I talked about it too much to strangers and paid for my sin by getting a lot of ill informed stupid advice from "expert" who didn't know Sh*t from shine-ola about it. Straight BS from peoples concepts that they stole from other people stupid concepts .

Most of this advice was about the TC Encore not being able to handle the pressure of the "big" cartridge. Of course, Like a fool, I listened too much to this dumb advice and chickened out half way through my testing and settles on a load that was accurate but way under the potential of the wonderful cartridge bullet combination. ( Never listen to these geniuses who have never gone ahead, on their own with a new idea, in their lives.)

Yes, I am ashamed to say, I soon became over concerned about the pressures of my experimental cartridge and stopped testing at the low velocity 1,920 fps and went to Africa in search of 3 cape buffalo.

Readers please note that this load with a .410 CEB Raptor bullet running at just 1,920 fps., was about like Tredmarks load mentioned above, and not much more than a .500S&W Pistol load.

Now please hear this, I hit each of the three buffalo broadside in the middle of their shoulder, not down in the heart like we are supposed to do. ( I was nervous and just went for the centre of shoulder mass to be safe, incase I flinched or made a mess of the shot somehow. ) The range of each one was under 50 yds.

Each buffalo took two or three staggering steps when hit by the .500 cal CEB Raptor bullet and unceremoniously flopped to the ground and died. Both PH's watched in amazement as though they had just witnessed a train wreck and they blurted out something like " What cartridge did you say that is?" "Is that a 500 NE".

I drag this story out once in a while when I am in one of those 'old man gives advice' moods.

People don't like independent thinkers. They will try to discourage you from doing it, especially on these hunting/shooting forums. Don't take them too seriously, like I did. They are seldom helpful,

Don't hunt dangerous game, or any animals for that matter, with poor, cheap bullets, like I have done for many years. Bullets make all the difference. They are the only part of your shooting gear that hits the the animal.

Thanks for allowing me to blow off a little steam. Brian