45-70 dangerous game?

[akrifleman]

@akrifleman - I thought the reason the FBI switched BACK to the 9mm was because the majority of Agents could Not handle the recoil of the .40 S&W - couldn’t shoot them accurately and especially female agents. My understanding is that Now FBI Agents have the “option” to use either the 9mm or .40 S&W and the majority select the .9mm. If you have other specifics or insight - I would be interested but when I read this——-seemed to make sense because the recoil tolerance for average handgun shooters tops out at 9mm, .38 spl, … At least that was my understanding.

Close. Some agents were not effectively shooting the 10mm so they designed the .40S&W (and Sig the 357Sig, et al) In the meanwhile, bullet development for the 9mm made them realize they were getting essentially better terminal performance with the 9mm, than the .40 or 9mm was getting with traditional bullets. All things being equal, the two are so close now that the .40 has all but disappeared.

There was nothing wrong with the .40 per se... just the 9mm is ubiquitous. Edit: Re: ubiquitous I really should have said that the cost of the 9mm was simply much cheaper nationwide for police departments.

 

[fourfive8]

These threads about performance have been beaten to death.

But one take away I always find interesting by looking at some of the test results (raw data) is the apparent tendency for round-nosed solids to veer off axis of travel as they lose velocity and spin rate near terminus of penetration. It is IMO an artifact is spin stabilization. The path that tracks off axis is likely shaped something like an abbreviated spiral. Most describe it as a more or less straight tangent. The difference in net effect of either on performance on game would likely be negligible. Nerdy trivia, huh…

 

[skydiver386]

I think the 45-70 is a fine Dangerous Game cartridge in the single shot T/C Contender.

It all depends on how much "DANGER " your want to put yourself and others in!

 

[TTundra]

@Tundra Tiger just tagging in so I can be ready when I post a thread on my next Buff that I'll be going for with a lever action in a proverbial 'marginal' caliber....
May need a new 'Lever action Love DG' thread...

 

[akrifleman]

These threads about performance have been beaten to death.

But one take away I always find interesting by looking at some of the test results (raw data) is the apparent tendency for round-nosed solids to veer off axis of travel as they lose velocity and spin rate near terminus of penetration. It is IMO an artifact is spin stabilization. The path that tracks off axis is likely shaped something like an abbreviated spiral. Most describe it as a more or less straight tangent. The difference in net effect of either on performance on game would likely be negligible. Nerdy trivia, huh…

Cavitation flow

 

[HankBuck]

Close. Some agents were not effectively shooting the 10mm so they designed the .40S&W (and Sig the 357Sig, et al) In the meanwhile, bullet development for the 9mm made them realize they were getting essentially better terminal performance with the 9mm, than the .40 or 9mm was getting with traditional bullets. All things being equal, the two are so close now that the .40 has all but disappeared.

There was nothing wrong with the .40 per se... just the 9mm is ubiquitous. Edit: Re: ubiquitous I really should have said that the cost of the 9mm was simply much cheaper nationwide for police departments.

@akrifleman: I would think that the softer recoil of the 9mm is a big benefit to most in LE that might need to actually use their firearm to defend themselves - at some point in their careers. My line of work was Not LE but I worked closely with many and had friends join Police Departments as well. The few that I’ve had a chance to shoot with at a range were surprisingly Poor shots…(as well as two others that described their abilities Honestly by stating “I’m a really bad shot”). Other than when “required” to qualify - they rarely practiced with their handguns. I found that odd, especially knowing their life might depend on their ability — but was told by more then one LE “no interest in practicing”.
I think you are correct that the popularity of the .40 S&W has declined greatly in the past 10-15 years. Maybe the .40 S&W is to Semi Autos - what the .41 mag is to Revolvers? You either use a .357mag or jump to the .44….you either use a .9mm or jump to the .10mm?

 

[HookMeUpII]

Close. Some agents were not effectively shooting the 10mm so they designed the .40S&W (and Sig the 357Sig, et al) In the meanwhile, bullet development for the 9mm made them realize they were getting essentially better terminal performance with the 9mm, than the .40 or 9mm was getting with traditional bullets. All things being equal, the two are so close now that the .40 has all but disappeared.

There was nothing wrong with the .40 per se... just the 9mm is ubiquitous. Edit: Re: ubiquitous I really should have said that the cost of the 9mm was simply much cheaper nationwide for police departments.

The reason for the 9mm, as you said, is from better ammo technology. Some of the polymer tipped hollowpoints in +p 9mm are every bit as effective in terms of wound channel, energy transfer, as .40mm with a non-defense round. With that being said, .40 with the new ammo tech is devastating. But, when it comes to a person, dead/incapacitated is dead/incapacitated. So why bother with more recoil, reduced ability for consecutive shot follow up, and more money? A 9mm +p with a high quality defense round is effective. They didn't really have that in the 80's and 90's. You're right on the FBI shootout. 10mm was invented, then chopped to .40 which was manageable. .40 and .357 sig are two rounds I loathe, by the way.

Humans, compared to animals, are pretty fragile creatures. You put a round somewhere in the volleyball area of center mass with a 9mm +p round with polymer tipped hollowpoint it's essentially lights out or will be in short order. PCP, heroine, khat...whatever, once that BP drops the lights start going out. They can have as much drugs as they want in their system, once that blood flow drops its over. You also have to remember most gunfights are within 10'. There's a lot to expand on here but that's enough.

Now, when you're talking a 1000+ lb cape buffalo, you could hit that thing with 458 Lott, and that first round gets the adrenaline pumping. They are just built differently. Cape buffalo, moose, elk, bear, etc. They are just not the same. Cape buffalo is probably highest up the scale there. There's enough videos online to analyze. I've seen enough to know you wouldn't want to bet your life on one single shot, even from a big bore.

I try to stay away from the bowhunting and handgun thing. Whether it's right or wrong, I am not going to weigh in on that. The only thing I will say is: On an animal that can take multiple 450g+ bullets going 2400 fps, do we really want to "just have enough?" 375HH being the minimum, is it smart to push the envelope lower?

 

[akrifleman]

The reason for the 9mm, as you said, is from better ammo technology. Some of the polymer tipped hollowpoints in +p 9mm are every bit as effective in terms of wound channel, energy transfer, as .40mm with a non-defense round. With that being said, .40 with the new ammo tech is devastating. But, when it comes to a person, dead/incapacitated is dead/incapacitated. So why bother with more recoil, reduced ability for consecutive shot follow up, and more money? A 9mm +p with a high quality defense round is effective. They didn't really have that in the 80's and 90's. You're right on the FBI shootout. 10mm was invented, then chopped to .40 which was manageable. .40 and .357 sig are two rounds I loathe, by the way.

Humans, compared to animals, are pretty fragile creatures. You put a round somewhere in the volleyball area of center mass with a 9mm +p round with polymer tipped hollowpoint it's essentially lights out or will be in short order. PCP, heroine, khat...whatever, once that BP drops the lights start going out. They can have as much drugs as they want in their system, once that blood flow drops its over. You also have to remember most gunfights are within 10'. There's a lot to expand on here but that's enough.

Now, when you're talking a 1000+ lb cape buffalo, you could hit that thing with 458 Lott, and that first round gets the adrenaline pumping. They are just built differently. Cape buffalo, moose, elk, bear, etc. They are just not the same. Cape buffalo is probably highest up the scale there. There's enough videos online to analyze. I've seen enough to know you wouldn't want to bet your life on one single shot, even from a big bore.

I try to stay away from the bowhunting and handgun thing. Whether it's right or wrong, I am not going to weigh in on that. The only thing I will say is: On an animal that can take multiple 450g+ bullets going 2400 fps, do we really want to "just have enough?" 375HH being the minimum, is it smart to push the envelope lower?

100% with you on the first two sentences without reservation.

I follow you logic, and understand your perspective on the second two. I don't really consider it as a matter of lower or higher. None of the black powder or cordite cartridges are really the same with smokeless powder, and they did much damage in their day. Bullets have changed dramatically, rifle quality has improved dramatically, and the science of forensics and terminal ballistics have improved greatly.

I view it as the window for reliable success has gotten much much wider.

 

[HookMeUpII]

100% with you on the first two sentences without reservation.

I follow you logic, and understand your perspective on the second two. I don't really consider it as a matter of lower or higher. None of the black powder or cordite cartridges are really the same with smokeless powder, and they did much damage in their day. Bullets have changed dramatically, rifle quality has improved dramatically, and the science of forensics and terminal ballistics have improved greatly.

I view it as the window for reliable success has gotten much much wider.

Reliable success is a very widely interpreted term.

Reliable success on a human is he/she stops advancing with the knife, doesn't have the ability to engage with a firearm (regardless of range), releases the hostage, etc. It's not always dead. Often dead is the end result. You just don't want them to kill you, your principal, or the hostage.

Reliable success on a cape buffalo is 1) stopping it from throwing you over its head into a tree or blending you into the dirt with its horns, and subsequently, 2) having it dead on the ground.

I'm unqualified to say first hand if 45-70 is enough. But, what I can say, is it seems like even a 458 with a top of the line Barnes, A-frame, etc isn't always enough with one well placed shot.

I think all I can say is this. I am not a bowhunter, but if I was, I would want at least a heavy hitting bow with a state of the art broadhead. Handgun, biggest damn one I could find with the best ammo. Rifle, at the very least I would want a 375HH with a very, very high quality ammo. But that's just me.

And I will say, I am someone who has taken a lot of really stupid chances in his life. One thing you don't want to try and reason with is mother nature and her fauna. I've been on her bad side before with not enough boat, bad conditions, etc. Never the fauna side, thank God.

 

[HookMeUpII]

I should add, if you read some of the classic African hunting books, there are stories of PH's allowing clients who they knew were good shots to try and brain cape buffalo with 300WM, 7mm RM, etc. Definitely not the norm and the clients were often 100-150 yds away or more with a scoped rifle.

Doesn't mean it's a smart or "reliably successful" practice.

They also had very loose game laws back then.

 

[Brian]

@michael458 - thanks for one of the Best posts I’ve ever read on AH, excellent information and more ballistic details then the FBI has on JFK !!

HankBuck, I agree 100% and it is very decent and timely of you to say it.

The amount of research Michael458 has done and the resulting information and knowledge that he offers to all of us, free of charge, is truly awesome.
Such a vast body of knowledge has never been available in one package, to us civilians because there has never been the focused will and resources to complete the rigorous and costly R&D, then summarize and document it. ( Yes, in the last three decades there were other people on the job in other parts of the world making respectable headway in monolithic bullets including Barnes, GS Custom Bullets in Port Elizabeth South Africa, Peregrine Bullets in Pretoria, and other that I can't remember right now and they also deserve recognition and gratitude. )

I first stumbled across Michael458 in about 2015 when I was looking for loading information for a .577 NE, single-shot rifle project that I was struggling with. Out of the blue and in sheer kindness a stranger named Sam Rose emailed me comprehensive tables of his own .577NE loads. Included in the tables were of course the names of the powders and bullets that he was working with. One bullet he seemed to favour was the Cutting Edge Bullet, Safari Solid and Raptor models. I had never heard of CEB, so Sam, pointed me to B&M Rifles and Cartridges.
That change everything for me. I refer to it among my few hunting pals as my spiritual awakening. I knew that I had discovered the holy grail dangerous game bullets.
( This last paragraph like many of my paragraphs is mostly true.)

I would like to meet Michael458 and Sam some day. Brian