.450 BPE Case Slightly too Wide in Vintage Rifle?

[deewayne2003]

@deewayne2003 can you also PM it to me as I have it lost somewhere in the shop.

Done & Done

 

[Tom Leoni]

Gentlemen--here's an update.

I have tried to contact Steven Bertram, who also has a .500 Westley Model 97 of mine to do some work on it. Was not able to get a hold of him.

Today I talked to J.J., and he seems to think that his slightly tweaking the chamber (and possibly the extractor) to fit standard .450 shells would be a common, straightforward and quick enough modification. Although I am hesitant to modify the rifle from its original condition, I know that going this route would probably be the least time-consuming and most direct and satisfactory in the long run.

I will contact Ken Owen to get a second opinion, though.

 

[Prairie Bird Gun]

All ~

I have recently acquired a lovely Alex Henry .450 BPE single shot, probably from the mid 1880s. Upon attempting to insert an empty resized case, it appears that the head is slightly too wide for the chamber, thereby preventing the case to fully insert. It's probably a matter of just a few thousandths of an inch, but the very rear portion of the case just wouldn't go in.

I know that some of you also toy around with antique rifles and attempt to solve the little idiosyncrasies and vagaries associated thereto.

Do you have any suggestions on how to get around this problem? The easiest seems to be to have someone like Steven Bertram recut the chamber to match modern SAAMI-spec .450 NE brass. Or I could make a chamber casting and order a custom resizing die, but that would probably also take forever, but perhaps some of you have an easier and more expedient solution, like using some other caliber resizing die to slightly slim down the case head (just spitballing here).

Thank you in advance!

Hi Tom, I owned a single Alexander Henry .450 years ago and had the exact same issue!
This is not the answer you are after, but I will share what I learned. My rifle was a 3 1/4” bpe opposed to the more common 3” version often found in doubles. The gun came with several boxes of very old Kynoch “blue and red” black powder rounds. These rounds chambered well and shot just fine. After not being able to source any more vintage Kynoch loads, I acquired and loaded some Bertram “BB Base” head stamped brass and had the same chambering issue you are experiencing. I always found Bertram to be great quality, I just struck out on this particular rifle.
I used the scotch tape trick and determined the Bertram brass to be only a minuscule thousandths of an inch different in diameter slightly below the rim. The Kynoch brass slid right in without issue.
I ended up ordering some custom 450bpe loads from Colorado Custom Cartridge with measurements I provided. Unfortunately those folks retired and no long produce brass or loadings. I also had a local machine shop lathe some cases as well, that is always an option, but never cost effective.
If you can possibly find an old Kynoch BPE round, I would wager that it will chamber without issue. It would also provide the measurements you need to source correct brass. You may try reaching out to Gary at ColCart inc. He has a website with email info you will find with a google search. He is a wealth of antique cartridge knowledge and maybe able to provide you with some vintage single rounds for investigation.

I have owned some very early BPE rifles that were made back in the coiled brass/ paper case era and they were always a nightmare to fine tune loadings for. I would think your rifle being from the 1880s would be modern enough to not have this issue. I will dig through my antique ammo case and see if I happen to still have a round and provide you with some measurements.

Good luck with your rifle and take care!

 

[Tom Leoni]

Hi Tom, I owned a single Alexander Henry .450 years ago and had the exact same issue!
This is not the answer you are after, but I will share what I learned. My rifle was a 3 1/4” bpe opposed to the more common 3” version often found in doubles. The gun came with several boxes of very old Kynoch “blue and red” black powder rounds. These rounds chambered well and shot just fine. After not being able to source any more vintage Kynoch loads, I acquired and loaded some Bertram “BB Base” head stamped brass and had the same chambering issue you are experiencing. I always found Bertram to be great quality, I just struck out on this particular rifle.
I used the scotch tape trick and determined the Bertram brass to be only a minuscule thousandths of an inch different in diameter slightly below the rim. The Kynoch brass slid right in without issue.
I ended up ordering some custom 450bpe loads from Colorado Custom Cartridge with measurements I provided. Unfortunately those folks retired and no long produce brass or loadings. I also had a local machine shop lathe some cases as well, that is always an option, but never cost effective.
If you can possibly find an old Kynoch BPE round, I would wager that it will chamber without issue. It would also provide the measurements you need to source correct brass. You may try reaching out to Gary at ColCart inc. He has a website with email info you will find with a google search. He is a wealth of antique cartridge knowledge and maybe able to provide you with some vintage single rounds for investigation.

I have owned some very early BPE rifles that were made back in the coiled brass/ paper case era and they were always a nightmare to fine tune loadings for. I would think your rifle being from the 1880s would be modern enough to not have this issue. I will dig through my antique ammo case and see if I happen to still have a round and provide you with some measurements.

Good luck with your rifle and take care!

Wow, that’s so very helpful! Thank you!!!!

 

[Prairie Bird Gun]

Tom, I found one lonely round of antique Kynoch 3.25” Bpe. Here is a photo of some caliper readings for the top portion of the round. Also a photo of what the antique Kynoch black powder box looks like. This is from a 500bpe, the 450bpe box was identical.
Cheers,
Aron