458 Win Mag vs 458 Lott....The facts

[Riflecrank]

SAAMI .458 WM & .458 WM+ velocities mentioned above are from 24" barrel length.

 

[Hunting Hitman]

SAAMI .458 WM & .458 WM+ velocities mentioned above are from 24" barrel length.

As I suspected your calculations only work with shorter less desirable bullets.
I don’t use Hornady DGS or DGX bullets having personally seen them fail in 2013/2014 safaris until I finally realized they were shit. I know they changed the construction of the bullets to bonded without ever admitting the inferior product they put out before nor accepting responsibility for potential harm some may have had to them because of that shit product.
Any benefits you get from the shorter bullets such as the TBBC can also be extrapolated to the Lott load to a better ballistic performance than the 458 win mag. Frankly it’s silly to to argue the Win Mag is superior to the Lott.

Lastly those foolish enough to diminish the Blaser R8’s performance due so at their own ignorance. I own plenty of different manufacturers rifles and find the Blaser’s to be a fine and deadly weapon.

HH

 

[Wyatt Smith]

From my limited research, it seems the Lott will reach 2150 with a wider variety of powders than the win mag will. For an African PH that could be very beneficial.

 

[Riflecrank]

HH: As I suspected your calculations only work with shorter less desirable bullets.

Riflecrank: There were no calculations involved , just reality.
Unless you take offense at the reality analysis by standard deviation calculation on the LabRadar results?
But you are crazy if you think that calculation only works with "shorter less desirable bullets."
And the reality is that the longer the bullet is, the more advantageous for the .458 WM+ to use it in beating a SAAMI .458 Lott.
The only problem with the 500-gr/.458 CEB Safari Solid is the screwy drive-band lay-out.

HH: I don’t use Hornady DGS or DGX bullets having personally seen them fail in 2013/2014 safaris until I finally realized they were shit. I know they changed the construction of the bullets to bonded without ever admitting the inferior product they put out before nor accepting responsibility for potential harm some may have had to them because of that shit product.

Riflecrank: Now you are having "flight of ideas" off to blaming a different bullet maker just because I do not like one of the hundreds of bullets made by CEB. Sounds like "transference" in psychoanalytic lingo. Get help.
The CEB Safari Solid is the best design possible except when they get the drive-band layout screwed up for my application. Maybe it suits another man's needs, not mine.

HH: Any benefits you get from the shorter bullets such as the TBBC can also be extrapolated to the Lott load to a better ballistic performance than the 458 win mag. Frankly it’s silly to to argue the Win Mag is superior to the Lott.

Riflecrank: I was using the TBSS not the TBBC in that last bit of "REALITY." Frankly, you have no understanding of what the SAAMI .458 WM throat is capable of. THROAT THROAT THROAT.
Physics does not lie.

HH: Lastly those foolish enough to diminish the Blaser R8’s performance due so at their own ignorance. I own plenty of different manufacturers rifles and find the Blaser’s to be a fine and deadly weapon.

Riflecrank: I shall "due so at their own ignorance." Blasers do impress as being a "fine and deadly weapon" in a suicide kind of way.

 

[Riflecrank]

From my limited research, it seems the Lott will reach 2150 with a wider variety of powders than the win mag will. For an African PH that could be very beneficial.

Finally, maybe an advantage of the .458 Lott over the .458 WinMag
for those with limited access to handloading resources such as powder selection.
Maybe.

But there are at least 4 dozen powders that I find useful in the .458 WM,
not counting the pistol and shotgun powders used for squib and birdshot loads.
About the same with the .458 Lott.

I will admit the .458 Lott is better with birdshot loads and shorter length bullets
for rat killin'.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I can tell you this much @Riflecrank if I ever own a Lott I will ream if with a win mag reamer to get the best of both.

 

[Riflecrank]

Wyatt Smith,
You are a wise man.
Then you will be able to use this data safely
(mine from a 24"-factory-barreled SAAMI .458 WinMag Ruger No. 1 at 80*F)
and I am sure you won't work up to it until after you run that SAAMI .458 WinMag reamer into your SAAMI .458 Lott:

Primer used in that W-W Super brass was a GM215M or F215, same-same.
Hornady, Winchester, Remington and Federal cases all have about same gross H2O capacity for the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Norma .458 WM has about 4.5 grains greater gross H2O capacity,
so equivalent loads with that brass may use the same powder charges and ~ 0.100" shorter COL.

So many bullets do well in the .458 WM+
and so many powders too.
So many excellent combinations, too many to shake a stick at.

 

[Hunting Hitman]

Wyatt Smith,
You are a wise man.
Then you will be able to use this data safely
(mine from a 24"-factory-barreled SAAMI .458 WinMag Ruger No. 1 at 80*F)
and I am sure you won't work up to it until after you run that SAAMI .458 WinMag reamer into your SAAMI .458 Lott:

View attachment 647966

Primer used in that W-W Super brass was a GM215M or F215, same-same.
Hornady, Winchester, Remington and Federal cases all have about same gross H2O capacity for the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Norma .458 WM has about 4.5 grains greater gross H2O capacity,
so equivalent loads with that brass may use the same powder charges and ~ 0.100" shorter COL.

View attachment 647967

So many bullets do well in the .458 WM+
and so many powders too.
So many excellent combinations, too many to shake a stick at.

You continue to quote statistics on the win mag +(this is a wildcat variant of the 458 win mag and not commercially loaded for)

If you ever lose your ammo while traveling your in serious trouble

458 Lott is far superior to the 458 win mag…period.

HH

 

[Riflecrank]

The .458 WM+ is a handloading category for the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chambered rifle.
It is any handload that exceeds 3.340" COL or might approach the higher MAP of the SAAMI .458 Lott: 62,500 psi instead of the usual 60,000 psi MAP of the SAAMI .458 WinMag.

The .458 WM+ is not a "wildcat variant." It uses the SAAMI chamber of the .458 Winchester Magnum.
If one did a .458 WinMag with a short throat like on the SAAMI .458 Lott you should mark it as a wildcat, ".458 Winchester Magnum Special."
Such a ".458 WM-S" would make factory loads shoot ~100 fps faster in MV and raise pressures considerably.

I recommend the Hornady 500-gr DGX-Bonded and DGS .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition as best for a velocity control on chronographing.
Good field performance at 2140 fps MV also.
It is the most consistent in delivering "as advertised" MV of any factory load I have tested:
2140 fps MV from a 24" barrel +/- a few fps.

I have a 24" barreled ".458 WinMag Special" that has a throat that is intermediate in length between the SAAMI .458 Lott and the SAAMI .458 WinMag.
The 2140 fps "control" ammo gave that MV in both a Winchester (FN/SC) M70 Super Grade 24" barrel and a factory Ruger No. 1 barrel of 24" length: 2140 fps +/- a few fps.
Same day testing of same ammo in my .458 WM-S gave 2196 fps MV from same length barrel.

Shorter throat, higher pressure, higher velocity.
See how this works ?

 

[Riflecrank]

If you ever lose your .458 WM+ ammo while traveling with your SAAMI-chambered .458 Winchester Magnum rifle,
you are in fine shape.

Anytime I have been in Alaska or Africa the .458 WinMag ammo was more plentiful than the .458 Lott.
The .458 WinMag clients usually killed with one shot and left unused ammo behind.
Maybe the Lottites used more ammo per kill and left less ammo behind ?

Using .458WinMag ammo in a .458 Lott is not as good as using .458 WinMag ammo in a .458 WinMag.

 

[TOBY458]

I think the truth of the matter is, if you can push a 500 gr bullet at 2150 fps or a 450 gr at 2250 fps from either a Win Mag or a Lott, you have all the gun you’ll ever need. With those velocities, all the other variables are pretty much moot. I seriously doubt an elephant or buffalo will know the difference in adding or subtracting 100 fps either way.

 

[Rule 303]

I do not own either of the calibres. However, and I may have missed this, the Lott will allow longer bullets to be used without sacrificing the percentage amount of powder space that would be required in the 458Win.

I believe most of the negative feed back on the 458Win was from its early days when then current powders were not as insensitive to environmental heat as they are today, in most cases. + with the newer powders it is easier to get the 458Win up to the claimed 2150fps that it struggled to do in its early days.