458 Win Mag vs 458 Lott....The facts

[Riflecrank]

From WAB:

"I won’t disagree with you on the passion! Bottom line, when you hit a buffalo in the right spot with a well constructed 500 gr bullet at 2,300 fps the argument is over. I get there with a Lott and factory ammo. If someone else wants to get there with hyped up ammo in a .458 WM with an extended throat, more power to them. To claim it is somehow better would be pretty difficult to prove to the Buffalo."

To WAB:

You do understand that the SAAMI .458 WinMag throat is what it is, not an "extended throat" to allow the performance noted, don't you ?
That is what allows the SAAMI .458 WinMag with "hyped up ammo" (.458 WM+ handloads) to use the maximum SAAMI .458 Lott loads as starting loads and work up from there.

A compressed charge in the SAAMI .458 Lott at 3.600" COL and 62,500 psi is going to have the same degree of compression in the .458 WM+ handload with same bullet at same COL.
Pressure will be less in the .458 WM+ due to the throat. You will have to add a little more powder to the .458 WM+ to get the pressure back up to 62,500 psi.
Velocity achievable by the .458 WM+ versus the SAAMI .458 Lott is an excellent subject for further discussion.

Hype. That is how the .458 Lott made its reputation.
Jack Lott gut-shot a cape buffalo with a 510-gr RNSP from his .458 WinMag in 1959, Mozambique.
His next shot was the 500-gr FMJ RN "solid" that deformed and failed due to the high velocity of that factory ammo, and the poor construction of the factory bullet of the day.
Any higher MV would have made it worse.
Jack got tossed and some how emerged from the bushes with his worst injury being a corneal abrasion that got a complication and it took a few weeks for him to be able to see well enough to return to hunting in Mozambique with PH Wally Johnson (Walter Johnson, Sr.)
BTW, after Wally Johnson distracted the cape buffalo that Jack angered, by emptying his .375 H&H into that cape buffalo, he picked up Jack's .458 WinMag off the ground and killed the buffalo.

Fast forward from 1959 to 1971 during which time Jack continued to safari with a .458 WinMag, as did his buddy/editor Tom Siatos. Then they got the wildcatting wild hair. Tom did the 460 G&A, and inspired Jack to do the .458 Lott in 1971.

Eventually the story of "the .458 Winchester Magnum failure" morphed into no fault of Jack's gut-shooting. And the legendary .458 Lott hype began.
Never mind that Jack used a .450 Watts Magnum reamer with no throat to run into the chamber of a SAAMI .458 WinMag, preserving the terminal leade of the .458 WinMag to create the .458 Lott Wildcat by trimming the brass to 2.800". When you fire-form .375 H&H brass into .458 Lott diameter,
it shortens so that you have to trim it down to uniform and square the case mouths.
The first .458 Lott wildcat was a ".458 Lott Special" that could perform just like a SAAMI .458 WinMag firing .458 WM+ handloads, unlike the SAAMI .458 Lott with Art Alphin's fingerprints all over it.

 

[Riflecrank]

odonata,
Aren't you the diplomat !

 

[Hunter-Habib]

A .458 Lott is a better choice than a .458 Winchester Magnum for body shots on lions when employing 500Gr bullets (all other factors being equal). I know this from personal experience.

 

[Riflecrank]

A .458 Lott is a better choice than a .458 Winchester Magnum for body shots on lions when employing 500Gr bullets (all other factors being equal). I know this from personal experience.

Anecdotes please do tell !

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Anecdotes please do tell !

1978, Ugalla Game Reserve, Tanzania (right when TAWICO or Tanzania Wildlife Corporation had reopened hunting in three blocks of Tanzania after the 1973 ban).
I shared a camp with an American gent by the name of Dave Bourban (who would eventually go on to become one of my best friends all the way until his tragic death in 2020 due to the Chinese Virus). Dave owned a Belgium made boxlock ejector double rifle in .458 Winchester Magnum. I had used this rifle on this particular Safari to down a Cape buffalo bull with no problems.

Dave had a lion on the menu. He took his .458 Winchester Magnum loaded with 500Gr soft nosed Hornady hand loads (at 2130 FPS). Lion was stalked in foot and shot twice (left barrel, right barrel) through the heart (frontal chest shot). He made off and expired roughly 150 yards later.

Years later in Zambia, I was present when a white hunter (armed with a .450 Rigby Rimless Magnum John rigby & Co. Mauser) had to stop a lion charge (lion was already wounded by a client). He put a 500Gr Woodleigh soft nose hand load (at 2350 FPS) through the lion's heart (frontal chest shot) at roughly 20 yards. Lion made a turn and simply gave out within seconds.

It was then that I slowly started coming to the conclusion that the higher velocity of the larger .450 Rigby Rimless Magnum cartridge case definitely did make a difference on the great cats (due to their unique highly developed central nervous system).

For this reason, I can safely state that the .458 Lott will be a better choice for body shots on lion than the .458 Winchester Magnum. Assuming of course, that all other factors being equal (which admittedly is seldom the case in the field).

Speaking for myself, I have been personally hunting most of my lions over the years with .375 Holland & Holland Magnums. But also one with a .458 Winchester Magnum.

The higher velocity of the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum's 300Gr bullets at 2530 FPS, definitely had more visible terminal effects on lions (when taking heart-lung shots) than the 500Gr bullets of the .458 Winchester Magnum at 2040 FPS.

For this same reason, I strongly believe that calibers like the .500/416 Nitro Express or .500 Jeffrey are superior for lion hunting (when taking body shots) than the .470 Nitro Express or .500 Nitro Express.

I have no grudge against the .458 Winchester Magnum, @Riflecrank . I used it extensively in the 1970s (when big bore ammunition for no other calibers were available, barring the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum). But I must be fair and detail my observations as I see them.

 

[Rule 303]

There is a lot of talk about the different throat length. If I had a Lott I would simply do what I do with most of my rifle, have it long throated. Then the Lott would could be loaded to higher velocities. I would think the gains would not be worth it for some but certainly for others.

 

[odonata]

odonata,
Aren't you the diplomat !

I always enjoy a good debate.

Reading Hunter-Habib's comments above reminded me of the detailed evaluation of the 458 Win Mag written by Major Khan who hunted in India when it & the 375 H&H were the only options that were widely available. It was interesting to see his progression from someone who had some early bad experiences (with anecdotes) & formed some unflattering opinions to someone who learned to appreciate what it could do now (with caveats).

Thread 'The .458 Winchester Magnum & I : A Fair Assessment'

Jul 21, 2020

There is no question about it . Over the last 61 years of my life as a hunter ( 10 of which , were spent as a professional shikaree ... Working under the employment of Allwyn Cooper Limited in Nagpur , India from 1961 - 1970 ) , I have not had many good things to say about the .458 Winchester magnum. Hell , I have been downright contemptful towards this caliber . A good deal of trouble , the .458 Winchester magnum has caused me ... During my career as a professional shikaree . How ever , all of this was more than 5 decades ago . My learned ( and experienced ) fellow forum members...

• Major Khan
• Replies: 34
• Forum: Articles

• 

The higher velocity of the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum's 300Gr bullets at 2530 FPS, definitely had more visible terminal effects on lions (when taking heart-lung shots) than the 500Gr bullets of the .458 Winchester Magnum at 2040 FPS.

Since some of the 458 Win Mag reloaders are shooting 300gr bullets like the Barnes TSX, I wonder what kind of results they would get with a high-velocity bullet as well. If increased speed is an important factor, I know Riflecrank developed a 3.340" load that was shooting at 2980 fps. The 2530 fps speed listed above is what they're regularly shooting 404gr Shock Hammers at.

 

[Hunting Hitman]

HH

 

[Mountaineer]

@Riflecrank what powder and barrel length are you using to achieve 2980 fps?

 

[WAB]

From WAB:

"I won’t disagree with you on the passion! Bottom line, when you hit a buffalo in the right spot with a well constructed 500 gr bullet at 2,300 fps the argument is over. I get there with a Lott and factory ammo. If someone else wants to get there with hyped up ammo in a .458 WM with an extended throat, more power to them. To claim it is somehow better would be pretty difficult to prove to the Buffalo."

To WAB:

You do understand that the SAAMI .458 WinMag throat is what it is, not an "extended throat" to allow the performance noted, don't you ?
That is what allows the SAAMI .458 WinMag with "hyped up ammo" (.458 WM+ handloads) to use the maximum SAAMI .458 Lott loads as starting loads and work up from there.

A compressed charge in the SAAMI .458 Lott at 3.600" COL and 62,500 psi is going to have the same degree of compression in the .458 WM+ handload with same bullet at same COL.
Pressure will be less in the .458 WM+ due to the throat. You will have to add a little more powder to the .458 WM+ to get the pressure back up to 62,500 psi.
Velocity achievable by the .458 WM+ versus the SAAMI .458 Lott is an excellent subject for further discussion.

Hype. That is how the .458 Lott made its reputation.
Jack Lott gut-shot a cape buffalo with a 510-gr RNSP from his .458 WinMag in 1959, Mozambique.
His next shot was the 500-gr FMJ RN "solid" that deformed and failed due to the high velocity of that factory ammo, and the poor construction of the factory bullet of the day.
Any higher MV would have made it worse.
Jack got tossed and some how emerged from the bushes with his worst injury being a corneal abrasion that got a complication and it took a few weeks for him to be able to see well enough to return to hunting in Mozambique with PH Wally Johnson (Walter Johnson, Sr.)
BTW, after Wally Johnson distracted the cape buffalo that Jack angered, by emptying his .375 H&H into that cape buffalo, he picked up Jack's .458 WinMag off the ground and killed the buffalo.

Fast forward from 1959 to 1971 during which time Jack continued to safari with a .458 WinMag, as did his buddy/editor Tom Siatos. Then they got the wildcatting wild hair. Tom did the 460 G&A, and inspired Jack to do the .458 Lott in 1971.

Eventually the story of "the .458 Winchester Magnum failure" morphed into no fault of Jack's gut-shooting. And the legendary .458 Lott hype began.
Never mind that Jack used a .450 Watts Magnum reamer with no throat to run into the chamber of a SAAMI .458 WinMag, preserving the terminal leade of the .458 WinMag to create the .458 Lott Wildcat by trimming the brass to 2.800". When you fire-form .375 H&H brass into .458 Lott diameter,
it shortens so that you have to trim it down to uniform and square the case mouths.
The first .458 Lott wildcat was a ".458 Lott Special" that could perform just like a SAAMI .458 WinMag firing .458 WM+ handloads, unlike the SAAMI .458 Lott with Art Alphin's fingerprints all over it.

This all sounds great but if you’re shooting factory ammo you’re going to get 2,300 fps with a Lott and about 2,150 with a WM. If you’re going to go through the mental gymnastics you suggest, you would be better off just building a .450 Ackley and have done with it.

 

[odonata]

This all sounds great but if you’re shooting factory ammo you’re going to get 2,300 fps with a Lott and about 2,150 with a WM. If you’re going to go through the mental gymnastics you suggest, you would be better off just building a .450 Ackley and have done with it.

A couple of points to consider:

• The group of hunters who are discussing these alternative options are almost never shooting factory ammo.

• The mental gymnastics of squeezing maximum potential out of a standard action is part of the appeal not an obstacle to be abandoned by going bigger. The majority of the 458 Win Mag aficionados I know own a variety of magnum length rifles & know what they’re capable of. @Riflecrank owns a 458 Lott.

• To “have done with it” is impossible. There will always be something new to try or experiment with. Talking about this one chambering ad infinitum is a lifelong activity. It may be annoying to try to discuss something with fanatics but that’s part of our charm. If you want to “have done with it”, you would be better off to just agree with us even if you think we’re wrong.

@Riflecrank what powder and barrel length are you using to achieve 2980 fps?

I was referencing that higher-velocity bullet based on a post in another discussion from earlier this year. @Riflecrank might have additional details or other examples:

From my current Ruger No.1H Tropical (24″)

On July 23/2019/ Temp 20C @ 3.325″ COL/82.5 grs H4198/ 300gr TSX = 2958, 2961 and 2959 fps (instrumental) -v. accurate! Corrected average (Chrony 15′ from muzzle) to MV = 2980 fps/5915 ft-lbs.

 

[WAB]

A couple of points to consider:

• The group of hunters who are discussing these alternative options are almost never shooting factory ammo.

• The mental gymnastics of squeezing maximum potential out of a standard action is part of the appeal not an obstacle to be abandoned by going bigger. The majority of the 458 Win Mag aficionados I know own a variety of magnum length rifles & know what they’re capable of. @Riflecrank owns a 458 Lott.

• To “have done with it” is impossible. There will always be something new to try or experiment with. Talking about this one chambering ad infinitum is a lifelong activity. It may be annoying to try to discuss something with fanatics but that’s part of our charm. If you want to “have done with it”, you would be better off to just agree with us even if you think we’re wrong.



I was referencing that higher-velocity bullet based on a post in another discussion from earlier this year. @Riflecrank might have additional details or other examples:

From my current Ruger No.1H Tropical (24″)

On July 23/2019/ Temp 20C @ 3.325″ COL/82.5 grs H4198/ 300gr TSX = 2958, 2961 and 2959 fps (instrumental) -v. accurate! Corrected average (Chrony 15′ from muzzle) to MV = 2980 fps/5915 ft-lbs.

That’s all great, but please don’t tell those of us who just hunt buffalo with them that the WM is somehow superior to the Lott. Here’s an interesting photo I’ve posted before after a little dust up in the Save. Two Lott’s and a 450 Ackley.