458 Win Mag vs 458 Lott....The facts

[Riflecrank]

@Riflecrank what powder and barrel length are you using to achieve 2980 fps?

H4198, 300-grainers, 24" barrel.
The load odonata quoted was from Sir Bob in Ontario. I have duplicated his data.
You can top 3000 fps with the 250-gr GMX from Hornady with H4198 or AA-5744.
That monometal bullet with a plastic tip is tough enough to take it.
Velocities around 2700 to 2800 fps are more sensible since the higher velocity loads only get you about a 50-yard advantage.
Those low BC bullets lose velocity so quickly when started off that fast.

 

[intj]

Is this one of those threads where someone tries to say a 458 Win Mag is better than a 458 Lott because while 458 WM owners are smart enough to seat their bullets longer, Lott owners aren't smart enough to throat their Lotts to take advantage of the 3.850 mag length of a CZ Magnum?



Given these are both pretty straight walled cases, bullet seating depth significantly affects case capacity. So obviously, there is a certain magazine length that will yield the same case capacity in both cartridges. However, when the magazine is long enough, like with a CZ or an M-70 with a Wyatt's box, the Lott definitely has more available case capacity when throated long enough.

You don't even have to have a lathe at home like I do to throat a Lott. You can do it by hand......

 

[CZDiesel]

I have always conceded that the 458 Lott is a more powerful cartridge! But for what? For who?
My 22” 458WM will toss a 500gr round at 2150 to 2170 ftps, so as a client do I need more? I’d argue NO! At over 5200ftlbs of energy and a sectional density of 334 I’m gonna pretty much hammer anything in front of me!
Buuuuuut if I were a PH where I might and probably will be put in the position of cleaning up a mess, well then the added extra juice is worth the squeeze…

 

[Rule 303]

I have always conceded that the 458 Lott is a more powerful cartridge! But for what? For who?
My 22” 458WM will toss a 500gr round at 2150 to 2170 ftps, so as a client do I need more? I’d argue NO! At over 5200ftlbs of energy and a sectional density of 334 I’m gonna pretty much hammer anything in front of me!
Buuuuuut if I were a PH where I might and probably will be put in the position of cleaning up a mess, well then the added extra juice is worth the squeeze…

Lets be honest. If the 458 Win was released years later when there were better powders available then the 458 Lott would most likely not see the light of day.

Having said that bear in mind that a 458 RUM may have turned up, just because they could and the 450Rigby would most certainly have come on the scene. Now if you want extra horse power, and I do not think it would be needed, that would be the way to go.

Not trying to hi jack the thread gents so lets stay on topic.

 

[Riflecrank]

Yep, you have to rechamber a SAAMI .458 Lott with a longer throat to make it capable of what a SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber can do in a CZ 550 Magnum.
I have a CZ 550 Magnum with a SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber and can load it to longer COL than a SAAMI .458 Lott can accept.
Keep in mind that when CZ first stared chambering the old original CIP .458 Lott homologation,
they used the same throat as on a SAAMI/CIP 458 WinMag, so there was way too much throat for a 3.8" mag box. Eventually CIP and CZ rvised to current SAAMI .458 Lott.
Here is what I can run through the magazine of the CZ 550 Magnum .458 WinMag, using a longer call than will chamber in a SAAMI .458 Lott, with 500-gr TSX Long Tom bullets.
Feeds great in the .458 WinMag CZ 550 Magnum:

All the COL's above work in a SAAMI .458 WinMag, with the 500-gr TSX, just barely.
COL of 3.780" is going to jam in the throat of a SAAMI.458 Lott, unless you fix it by using a SAAMI .458 WinMag reamer.
Yes, easily done by hand. Even a caveman can do it.
Unfortunately I have two rifles that started life as .458 WinMags but got re-chambered to .458 Lott and .458/.416 Ruger-Winchester-Throated.
So I have one .458 Lott Special. How silly of me.

You have to trim the 2.800" case extra short to make that 500-gr TSX fit into SAAMI restrictions for a .458 Lott.
At deepest seating of the 500-gr TSX bullet in a .458 Lott:

2.800" brass length + 0.830" nose projection = 3.630" COL. Uh oh.

 

[Riflecrank]

 

[Riflecrank]

 

[intj]

Yep, you have to rechamber a SAAMI .458 Lott with a longer throat to make it capable of what a SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber can do in a CZ 550 Magnum.
I have a CZ 550 Magnum with a SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber and can load it to longer COL than a SAAMI .458 Lott can accept.
Keep in mind that when CZ first stared chambering the old original CIP .458 Lott homologation,
they used the same throat as on a SAAMI/CIP 458 WinMag, so there was way too much throat for a 3.8" mag box. Eventually CIP and CZ rvised to current SAAMI .458 Lott.
Here is what I can run through the magazine of the CZ 550 Magnum .458 WinMag, using a longer call than will chamber in a SAAMI .458 Lott, with 500-gr TSX Long Tom bullets.
Feeds great in the .458 WinMag CZ 550 Magnum:

View attachment 648753

View attachment 648754





View attachment 648777
All the COL's above work in a SAAMI .458 WinMag, with the 500-gr TSX, just barely.
COL of 3.780" is going to jam in the throat of a SAAMI.458 Lott, unless you fix it by using a SAAMI .458 WinMag reamer.
Yes, easily done by hand. Even a caveman can do it.
Unfortunately I have two rifles that started life as .458 WinMags but got re-chambered to .458 Lott and .458/.416 Ruger-Winchester-Throated.
So I have one .458 Lott Special. How silly of me.

Yes, any of those options are exceedingly simple. Hand throat an existing 458 Lott, bring it over to my house and we will throat it in the lathe, or just use a Lott reamer with the freebore you want. Also, rechambering a SAMMI 458 Win works well too.

We do this type of stuff everyday in
our ship and I also do it at home. Though for my Lott I am borrowing a properly throated Lott reamer.

I don't think everyone understands just how much short seating can affect case capacity. The 458 Win Mag / 458 Lott throating show this well. As does a long throated 300 WSM. A 300 WSM with a long throat and then a +P or Bore Rider can get you 2900 fps with a Berger 215 in a 22-24" barrel.

 

[Riflecrank]

 

[Hunting Hitman]

Yes, any of those options are exceedingly simple. Hand throat an existing 458 Lott, bring it over to my house and we will throat it in the lathe, or just use a Lott reamer with the freebore you want. Also, rechambering a SAMMI 458 Win works well too.

We do this type of stuff everyday in
our ship and I also do it at home. Though for my Lott I am borrowing a properly throated Lott reamer.

I don't think everyone understands just how much short seating can affect case capacity. The 458 Win Mag / 458 Lott throating show this well. As does a long throated 300 WSM. A 300 WSM with a long throat and then a +P or Bore Rider can get you 2900 fps with a Berger 215 in a 22-24" barrel.

This a 1000%

Clearly both cartridges have the ability to be seated to minimum depths and more powder with lighter bullets can be loaded to achieve faster speeds. Knowing that the Lott has to be throated(a simple operation) to fit longer lengths.

A fascinating thread!

I will just continue to shoot my Lott with “stock” Cutting Edge or North Fork solids @2300 fps with devastating results on dangerous game.

HH

 

[WAB]

This a 1000%

Clearly both cartridges have the ability to be seated to minimum depths and more powder with lighter bullets can be loaded to achieve faster speeds. Knowing that the Lott has to be throated(a simple operation) to fit longer lengths.

A fascinating thread!

I will just continue to shoot my Lott with “stock” Cutting Edge or North Fork solids @2300 fps with devastating results on dangerous game.

HH

+1!

 

[Riflecrank]

The SAAMI .458 WinMag does not have to be re-throated to beat a SAAMI .458 Lott.
The .458 WinMag can be used in any of the common 3.4", 3.6" or 3.8" magazine lengths and Ruger No. 1.
Of all my "short magnum actioned" .458 WinMag bolt action rifles, with no alterations,
all can easily handle 3.380" COL through the magazine and will eject 3.540" COL unfired cartridges that have been single-loaded into the chamber.
The latest make Super Grade M70 from FN/SC will do that with 3.59" COL .458 WM+, no alterations to rifle.
That is like the new "double rifle." Two rifles in one.
1. A magazine repeater full of stopping bullets (450 to 500 grainers at +2300 fps to +2200 fps respectively from a 24" barrel)
2. A precision single-shot loaded with 404-gr, high BC, HP, monometal copper Hammers at 2500 to 2600 fps with COLs of 3.280" to 3.580".
Keep your ammo belt or buttstock carrier or shooting jacket cartridge loops full of those, and you will need very few of the heavier FN bullets in the magazine.

Who the heck needs more power or versatility than that ?

I re-chambered my stainless-laminate .458 Lott Ruger No. 1 Tropical to 450 NE 3-1/4" Thin Rim.
A good-as-home-baked-cookies solution to the last pesky SAAMI .458 Lott I had on hand.
Greater nostalgia value in the 450 NE.
I kept my SAAMI .458 WinMag Ruger No. 1 unmolested.
It beats a SAAMI .458 Lott.

 

[Riflecrank]

One shot through high shoulder at 30 yards with 404-gr Hammer loaded to 3.48" COL
and +2500 fps by Sir Jerry. DRT. Bullet exited.

The rifle is a Winchester M70 Classic action from a .375 H&H, stock is custom walnut, barrel is a JES re-bore of a .375 H&H stainless Winchester factory barrel. I own that rifle now. Apologies to Sir Jerry for another hornswoggle.

Member Hyde Hunter did similar with his CZ 550 Magnum, daring to shoot 404-gr Hammer at COL of 3.58", IIRC.

L to R: 3.28", 3.38", 3.48" and 3.58" COL

 

[KTMpilot]

I own a CZ550 Magnum that left the factory as a 458 WM, and then was converted to a 458 Lott brand new by the CZ importer in SA before I bought it new from Safari & Outdoor in Pretoria. I was sold on it by a very experienced Africa PH at S&O, Hancke Hudson, who is an old SA Army buddy of mine: apparently according to him the CZ 550 Magnum magazine box is longer than standard so that is why CZ never made factory Lott 458’s. The thinking was that the extra COAL that could be achieved in a 458 WM gave Lott performance in a CZ due to the longer magazine length. Anyways, I load my Lott loads according to my rifle’s actual magazine length, and I am very sorry, not sorry for being a “Lottite” at the performance I actually get, both over chrony and in the veld. At the Safari & Outdoor “Dangerous Game Shoot” (DGS) in South Africa earlier this year, I shot 40 rounds from it in a morning’s competition big game target shooting and ended in the top 30% out of almost 200 participants, with all my fillings intact and not so much as a bruise on my shoulder.

 

[Riflecrank]

 

[Riflecrank]

Actually, CZ USA was making .458 Lott rifles over here and initially used the old CIP reamer with
same throat on the 2.8" chamber as used on the 2.5" chamber for .458 WinMag.
I had one of those early rifles from CZ.
I traded it in on a CVA Paramount .45-cal muzzle loader.

 

[KTMpilot]

I own a CZ550 Magnum that left the factory as a 458 WM, and then was converted to a 458 Lott brand new by the CZ importer in SA before I bought it new from Safari & Outdoor in Pretoria. I was sold on it by a very experienced Africa PH at S&O, Hancke Hudson, who is an old SA Army buddy of mine: apparently according to him the CZ 550 Magnum magazine box is longer than standard so that is why CZ never made factory Lott 458’s. The thinking was that the extra COAL that could be achieved in a 458 WM gave Lott performance in a CZ due to the longer magazine length. Anyways, I load my Lott loads according to my rifle’s actual magazine length, and I am very sorry, not sorry for being a “Lottite” at the performance I actually get, both over chrony and in the veld. At the Safari & Outdoor “Dangerous Game Shoot” (DGS) in South Africa earlier this year, I shot 40 rounds from it in a morning’s competition big game target shooting and ended in the top 30% out of almost 200 participants, with all my fillings intact and not so much as a bruise on my shoulder.


View attachment 648894

One thing I will add, under advice from Pierre van der Walt, is when loading to magazine length, you must get the crimp right for the recoil, if pressure is maybe on limits for your load.

 

[Riflecrank]

 

[Riflecrank]

One thing I will add, under advice from Pierre van der Walt, is when loading to magazine length, you must get the crimp right for the recoil, if pressure is maybe on limits for your load.

Always get the crimp right for any load in the .458 WM or .458 Lott.
Having the bullet sitting on top of a 100% or mildly compressed powder charge is also a good idea.
Also make sure the front of the magazine box cannot dimple from bullets slamming into it in recoil.
CZ, Winchester, Ruger, etc. use a sheet metal magazine box that needs to have some steel reinforcement by soldered or J-B Welded steel plate, or a tight epoxy bedding up against magazine well front,
or however you like.

A steel plate inside the magazine box that is blended into the feed ramp is also an elegant solution to reduce excessive magazine length in the CZ 550 Magnum.

I need to get to work on one of my early CZ-USA .505 Gibbs rifles with that one.
Those silly gooses extended the .505 Gibbs magazine to over 4" inside length and put a hard rubber bumper at the front of the magazine, right under the feed ramp.
My alter ego "Bubba" can get out his handtools and J-B Weld to fix that !

 

[intj]

The bottom line is while the Winny is enough, anything the Winny can do the Lott can do better. .3" longer case is why......