458 Win Mag vs 458 Lott....The facts

[ldmay375]

At Equal cartridge overall lengths, you have the same case capacities. The 458 Winchester advantage becomes the longer SAAMI throat when in conjunction with a 3.6" magazine. Pretty easy to get the 3.6" advantage with a Winchester M70 Classic with minor modifications.

A re-chambered 458 Lott, from a SAAMI 458 Winchester, with the CZ's longer magazine allows for more case capacity in the longer 458 Lott brass, at a longer cartridge overall length than the 458 Winchester can accommodate. Most evident the shorter the actual bullet's length.

Of course, none of this matters unless you hand load, or have someone load for your specific rifles.

Personally, the I like the 3.4" magazine loads in the 458 Winchester. I don't think they will be the cause of anyone being mauled or stomped into a bloody mush.
I have a CZ 458 Winchester / 458 Lott and a MRC 3.6" magazine one.

 

[Riflecrank]

The bottom line is while the Winny is enough, anything the Winny can do the Lott can do better. .3" longer case is why......

Only if you run a SAAMI .458 WinMag reamer into the SAAMI .458 Lott chamber can it reach the performance level of the .458 WinMag allowed to be handloaded to .458 WM+ class.
Same pressures for both. No handicapping of the .458 WinMag with a lower MAP than the .458 Lott.

And, how does the .458 Lott do when you fit it into a .30-06-length action ?
Oh, I forgot, it does better with No. 9 shot for rats and snakes.

 

[WAB]

Wow, this is truly getting wearisome. On to more interesting discussions about actually hunting something.

 

[Riflecrank]

ldmay375, you need a correction on your thinking here:

"A re-chambered 458 Lott, from a SAAMI 458 Winchester, with the CZ's longer magazine allows for more case capacity in the longer 458 Lott brass, at a longer cartridge overall length than the 458 Winchester can accommodate. Most evident the shorter the actual bullet's length."

No.
The limiting factor here is the throat itself.
With 2.5" brass or 2.8" brass in a 3.8" magazine length,
with a 500-gr TSX bullet the maximum COL before jamming bullet into the lands is like this:

SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum: 3.780"
SAAMI .458 Lott: 3.622"

That is if the two rifles being compared are made to SAAMI minimum chamber specs and use the same bullet, identical in ogive to the lot I have.
Individual rifles may vary from this due to the plus tolerance allowed which still meets the minimum chamber specs, to fit the maximum ammo specs.

Distance from breech face to first contact of a .458-caliber rifling diameter at start of lands in a .458"-grooved, minimum SAAMI spec barrel for .458-caliber rifles:

SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum: 3.1725"
SAAMI .458 Lott: 3.0143"

Undeniable truth:
The SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum has a longer chamber than the SAAMI .458 Lott.

 

[Riflecrank]

To reiterate, skip to bolded words of Phil Shoemaker below if Lottite reading comprehension and retention was adequate from first time:

Hype. That is how the .458 Lott made its reputation.
Jack Lott gut-shot a cape buffalo with a 510-gr RNSP from his .458 WinMag in 1959, Mozambique.
His next shot was the 500-gr FMJ RN "solid" that deformed and failed due to the high velocity of that factory ammo, and the poor construction of the factory bullet of the day.
Any higher MV would have made it worse.
Jack got tossed and some how emerged from the bushes with his worst injury being a corneal abrasion that got a complication and it took a few weeks for him to be able to see well enough to return to hunting in Mozambique with PH Wally Johnson (Walter Johnson, Sr.)
BTW, after Wally Johnson distracted the cape buffalo that Jack angered, by emptying his .375 H&H into that cape buffalo, he picked up Jack's .458 WinMag off the ground and killed the buffalo.

Fast forward from 1959 to 1971 during which time Jack continued to safari with a .458 WinMag, as did his buddy/editor Tom Siatos. Then they got the wildcatting wild hair. Tom did the 460 G&A, and inspired Jack to do the .458 Lott in 1971.

Eventually the story of "the .458 Winchester Magnum failure" morphed into no fault of Jack's gut-shooting. And the legendary .458 Lott hype began.
Never mind that Jack used a .450 Watts Magnum reamer with no throat to run into the chamber of a SAAMI .458 WinMag, preserving the terminal leade of the .458 WinMag to create the .458 Lott Wildcat by trimming the brass to 2.800". When you fire-form .375 H&H brass into .458 Lott diameter,
it shortens so that you have to trim it down to uniform and square the case mouths.
The first .458 Lott wildcat was a ".458 Lott Special" that could perform just like a SAAMI .458 WinMag firing .458 WM+ handloads, unlike the SAAMI .458 Lott with Art Alphin's fingerprints all over it.

Phil Shoemaker added:

"Jack’s self serving 180 degree 'report' was then taken up as a battle cry by a few high profile gun scribes and journalists with absolutely no experience with the 458 Win , but thought it a good way to further their writing careers."

 

[ldmay375]

ldmay375, you need a correction on your thinking here:

"A re-chambered 458 Lott, from a SAAMI 458 Winchester, with the CZ's longer magazine allows for more case capacity in the longer 458 Lott brass, at a longer cartridge overall length than the 458 Winchester can accommodate. Most evident the shorter the actual bullet's length."

No.
The limiting factor here is the throat itself.
With 2.5" brass or 2.8" brass in a 3.8" magazine length,
with a 500-gr TSX bullet the maximum COL before jamming bullet into the lands is like this:

SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum: 3.780"
SAAMI .458 Lott: 3.622"

That is if the two rifles being compared are made to SAAMI minimum chamber specs and use the same bullet, identical in ogive to the lot I have.
Individual rifles may vary from this due to the plus tolerance allowed which still meets the minimum chamber specs, to fit the maximum ammo specs.

Distance from breech face to first contact of a .458-caliber rifling diameter at start of lands in a .458"-grooved, minimum SAAMI spec barrel for .458-caliber rifles:

SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum: 3.1725"
SAAMI .458 Lott: 3.0143"

Undeniable truth:
The SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum has a longer chamber than the SAAMI .458 Lott.

I have no doubt what you are saying is true.
The ogive contact being the limiting point.

I don't have any .458 500 grain TSX. But, I do have the 450's. This is specific to my particular CZ 458 Winchester / Lott, with this 450 TSX and once fired 458 Lott brass.
A very quick redneck check of throat. I think it can be loaded slightly longer before rifling contact. But I am already seated at about middle ways of the bullet base, on this 450 TSX. Which is seated longer than this rifle's magazine. It is roughly 4.11" COL. I did not spend the time truing up on the rifle for precisely accurate photo.

 

[intj]

Only if you run a SAAMI .458 WinMag reamer into the SAAMI .458 Lott chamber can it reach the performance level of the .458 WinMag allowed to be handloaded to .458 WM+ class.
Same pressures for both. No handicapping of the .458 WinMag with a lower MAP than the .458 Lott.

And, how does the .458 Lott do when you fit it into a .30-06-length action ?
Oh, I forgot, it does better with No. 9 shot for rats and snakes.

Incorrect. As I mentioned before, there are several ways to achieve the true potential of a 458 Lott. They are all exceedingly easy to do.

The only way to make a 458 Win exceed a Lott is to artificially restrict the Lott to a less than optimum COAL while maximizing the the 458 Win COAL.

Anyone who would buy into doing that shouldn't be hunting DG and therefore has no need for either the 458 Win or 458 Lott.

 

[Riflecrank]

ldmay375:
You must have one of those early CZ .458 Lott rifles chambered with the original CIP homologation reamers. Max COL with that bullet would be about 4.080" in such a rifle using my ogive, similar to yours.
Maybe you have some slop that exceeds the original CIP minimum, or maybe not, close enough.
A little over the minimum would still be "in-spec" according to how CIP did it before SAAMI did it.
You do not have a SAAMI .458 Lott if you can chamber that.
Current CIP is same as SAAMI for the .458 Lott.

 

[ldmay375]

As this cartridge stands, 4.1120" COL. And possibly a tiny more is available. I seated where there is no rifling contact.

Yes, I think this is an early rifle. If one desired single loads, it will eject loaded at this length. I don't. I have not messed with determining the groove seating depth vs magazine length. Because, I load to the MRC's magazine length. But, I am not going to run out of throat with this rifle and a 450 TSX. The magazine is definitely the limiting factor.

All fun and games, and a learning process. But, I am still a 3.4" 458 Winchester guy. Pure simplicity, function, and performance when loaded to near magazine length.

 

[Riflecrank]

Wow, this is truly getting wearisome. On to more interesting discussions about actually hunting something.

Incorrect. As I mentioned before, there are several ways to achieve the true potential of a 458 Lott. They are all exceedingly easy to do.

The only way to make a 458 Win exceed a Lott is to artificially restrict the Lott to a less than optimum COAL while maximizing the the 458 Win COAL.

Anyone who would buy into doing that shouldn't be hunting DG and therefore has no need for either the 458 Win or 458 Lott.

Yes truly wearisome that intj is so incorrect about incorrect.
Plumb tedious that so many Lottites just want to take their toy and go home, do not play well with others.

When you stretch a brass case by 0.3" and then shoehorn it into a magazine action that is only 0.2" longer, you get problems with the pre-existing .458 heavy bullets that fit so well at 3.34" COL on a 2.5" case length in a 3.4" magazine.
If you then put that 0.3" longer case into a magazine action that is another 0.2" longer than that (from 3.4" to 3.6" to 3.8"magazine length, spelled out so intj doesn't get confused)
you have more freedom to load longer than 3.6" COL with the SAAMI .458 Lott chamber,
but the throat is so short that you cannot do much more.
See notes above to ldmay375.
I think he gets it now.
I think he has a higher IQ than intj.

 

[Riflecrank]

As this cartridge stands, 4.1120" COL. And possibly a tiny more is available. I seated where there is no rifling contact.

Yes, I think this is an early rifle. If one desired single loads, it will eject loaded at this length. I don't. I have not messed with determining the groove seating depth vs magazine length. Because, I load to the MRC's magazine length. But, I am not going to run out of throat with this rifle and a 450 TSX. The magazine is definitely the limiting factor.

All fun and games, and a learning process. But, I am still a 3.4" 458 Winchester guy. Pure simplicity, function, and performance when loaded to near magazine length.

Makes perfect sense.
I still like the 3.4" magazine best of all too.
But 3.6" and 3.8" magazines and even single shots do have their uses.