.458 Winchester Magnum too much gun?

I've shot buffalo with 416 Ruger, 458 Lott, and 500 NE. All of them (6 total) resulted in clean kills. The 458 and certainly the 500 are not "necessary". That said, they kill more convincingly and it's an awful lot of fun to shoot buff with a big double or heavy, open-sighted rifle.

That said, a scoped 375 or 416 does just fine.
 
I know I am way off the point, Dr. Kevin Robertson stated " The perfect caliber for Cape Buffalo is a 450 gn cup/core or solid bullet at 2250 f/s from a 404 Jeffery..it is on both side good , the hunter experiencing mild recoil for excellent shot placement, the buffalo receiving a deadly impact and penetration through the top of the heart ...a win, win situation( my opinion) ...I really would have liked it very much if a forum member some time in the future will use my 404 Jeffery to hunt buffalo...I would like to see how it will perform using a 450 gn bullet at 2250 f/s on a buffalo...any hunter is more than welcome to use my 404 Jeffery when you hunt in SA ...(y)(y)
 
I've shot a few buff in Zimbabwe, Zambia, SA and even water buff in NT. All but one was taken with my 458 Win Mag. Personally, I find it very comforting to know that I have a "charge stopper" in my hands if the need arises (which very nearly did in Zambia) and I won't need to look back imploringly - and a bit embarrassed - at the PH to save my skin if I was using anything less. But that said, I did find it a very satisfying moment when I dropped my last cape buff with my 9.3x62.

As many have stated here: use the largest calibre you can competently handle AND confidently use. There are a myarid of factors and reasons why someone would choose one calibre over another for DG, and that's their prerogative. But as long as they make an informed decision, and use their chosen calibre competently and confidently, then there shouldn't be a problem.

So, to me, it isn't simply a question over who can or cannot use a large calibre, or why, but - more importantly - one in which the safety of all on the hunt is paramount: whilst taking their trophy as efficiently and humanely as possible. (y)
 
So, to me, it isn't simply a question over who can or cannot use a large calibre, or why, but - more importantly - one in which the safety of all on the hunt is paramount: whilst taking their trophy as efficiently and humanely as possible. (y)

That is a marvelous statement!
 
I've shot a few buff in Zimbabwe, Zambia, SA and even water buff in NT. All but one was taken with my 458 Win Mag. Personally, I find it very comforting to know that I have a "charge stopper" in my hands if the need arises (which very nearly did in Zambia) and I won't need to look back imploringly - and a bit embarrassed - at the PH to save my skin if I was using anything less. But that said, I did find it a very satisfying moment when I dropped my last cape buff with my 9.3x62.

As many have stated here: use the largest calibre you can competently handle AND confidently use. There are a myarid of factors and reasons why someone would choose one calibre over another for DG, and that's their prerogative. But as long as they make an informed decision, and use their chosen calibre competently and confidently, then there shouldn't be a problem.

So, to me, it isn't simply a question over who can or cannot use a large calibre, or why, but - more importantly - one in which the safety of all on the hunt is paramount: whilst taking their trophy as efficiently and humanely as possible. (y)
With your vast expertise on shooting buffalo, what would your advise be for practicing for hunting buffalo as far as how many shots in a given diameter target and at what range? I would really eventually like to hunt a buffalo with my open sighted .458WM or Lott? Thank you!
 
Did he actually say too much gun? Or was he more trying to say a cartridge like the 458WM is actually not needed and the 416's and 375's do the job just fine?
So far all my buffalo hunting has been done with a 375H&H for a few reasons, I find it easy to shoot and I shoot it well, I like the versatility of the 375H&H and IMO it has proven to be more than adequate for the job. Having said that I feel a bigger cartridge could do the job even better, so why not? I just purchased a 458 Lott.
So, what do you think of the Lott's recoil? I purchased a used CZ 550 Lott a couple of weeks ago. Last Wednesday, I went to the range and shot ten factory Nosler 500gr. Partitions through it. I didn't experience much more FELT recoil than with shooting factory 450gr. Barnes TSX through my WM? Thanks!
 
I've shot Buff, Cape and Asiatic with scopes and irons, shooting a 400H&H 458 Lott and a 450ne. The last a Cape with the 450ne and iron sights, it defined the hunt getting inside of 50 yards. The best advice given is to use as much gun as you are comfortable with. Me, I'm building a 505 Gibbs for my next hunt, Buff included. If I'm comfortable shooting it it's going, if not I'll bring one of the above.
Finding the right gun is part of the preparation enjoy it..
 
So, what do you think of the Lott's recoil? I purchased a used CZ 550 Lott a couple of weeks ago. Last Wednesday, I went to the range and shot ten factory Nosler 500gr. Partitions through it. I didn't experience much more FELT recoil than with shooting factory 450gr. Barnes TSX through my WM? Thanks!
I've never fired a WM but from the numbers I have seen the recoil is slightly less than the Lott. But again all this will depend on gun weight, stock design etc
All though I find the recoil of the Lott pretty harsh to say the least, I feel like I'm shooting it quite well, I m able to reload and fire reasonably accurate follow shots I think just as quickly as I can with my 375H&H.
 
With your vast expertise on shooting buffalo, what would your advise be for practicing for hunting buffalo as far as how many shots in a given diameter target and at what range? I would really eventually like to hunt a buffalo with my open sighted .458WM or Lott? Thank you!

Firstly, I'd never claim "vast" - all my experience is as a client who's success has come from always following those with the vast experience - my PHs. But what they always tell me is that (as general rule) as long as you can constantly bounce a mug around at 50yds with your 458 that's good enough - so a 2-3" group should see you ok. Remember too, the heart on a cape buffalo is about the size of a grapefruit, and the closer you are to him (and preferably unaware of you), the easier it is to hit it. So for any situation, I'd also advise knowing the POI for your ammunition at ranges from 25 to 100yds: for myself I like to get in around 40-50yds before opening the proceedings.

Placement of that all-important shot is everything, and is dependent on the angle and anatomical landmarks presented to you. So at this moment follow your PH's whispered advice. Using this, while getting on the sticks and sighting in, I'm thinking things a bit further by using those anatomical landmarks on the skin as a guide while visualising I've got a long knitting needle with which to pierce the heart (or whichever of the vitals available). Then placing my sights where the "needle" intersects the animal's skin I squeeze off the shot.

Remember too, that as soon as you've fired - RELOAD!! - and get ready for the follow-up. DON'T stop there to admire your shot!! That's a very good way to lose your buff, and greatly annoy your PH - as he's the one that has to now go get it, AND keep yours and everyone else's butt intact! Remember, there'll be plenty of time to admire your buff later, once it IS dead.

So for practise at the range before you depart on your hunt, train yourself into the habit in taking that first, steady, shot off the sticks and then - as you come out of recoil - work the bolt to chamber another round and get back on target asap. Generally, after the first shot there's far too little time to get back onto the sticks, so your second shot may well have to be freehand.

As a reloader, I've developed a DG load for my rifle and found it is both accurate and performs beautifully. A lot of PHs like a soft on the first round, followed up by solids, but I've hunted with others that like you loaded up with softs only (this prevents "shoot through" if another bull is behind yours), so check with your PH first.

The photo below is clipped footage of one of my Zambian buff, and underscores much of the foregoing. That's it's heart being held in the trackers hands (it's apex, or bottom, pointing towards his feet), and the large hole you can see is the exit wound of a Woodleigh 500ger RNSN projectile. That buff wobbled about 20yds before collapsing, and it was all over.

Hope this helps, and enjoy your journey!! (y)

20200331_125016.jpg
 
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All good stuff discussed here.
As a local South African hunter, I tend to be more standard in my approach.
In my earlier years, I hunted buff in Zambia, Zimbabwe and Tanzania with my BRNO 602 375 H&H Magnum... Always had a follow up shot to make sure.
In later years, I bought a CZ 550 458 WM loaded with 500g A-Frames (2 x on top followed by 500g solids below) Shot buff in Zambia, Zimbabwe and South Africa, all one shot kills, some being frontal chest shots, others side on heart/lung shots. Do I feel more confident with this 458?? ABSOLUTELY... AND have added stopping power in the event of a charge.
Also hunted a few elephant in Zimbabwe... The 458 worked fine with 500g solids all up.
On one hunt in Zimbabwe, we were attacked by four charging cows during tracking of this group, being after the big bull with them.
From about 30m these cows appeared out of the trees at full tilt.. 2x frontal shots from my rifle and 2x frontal shots from PH's 458 Lott, stopped the leading cow at 9m...all four shots were too low for the brain, but I am still amazed at how that cow kept coming and did not go down initially!!
I only use Premium ammo- softs and solids.
RECOIL.... what's that? In the bush I never feel recoil at all... On the range, my 458 is a different story and I don't like to shoot more than 10 x shots in a session.
We don't have all the selection of calibers available to you guys in the USA, but the standard ones suit me and my sons just fine.
 
A lot have to do with what each has used and the specific results of such use on DG. Some are happy with 458 WM no matter the situation, some are not.

I saw too many issues with same.

I started with a 375 H&H and as Elephant and buffalo became more part of the deal. I switched to a 500 JEFF, because my first DG mentor used one and I saw what it was capable of, and the rest as they say is history....I have the utmost confidence in my 500 JEFF and have used in many bad situations always with the same result, one well placed shot, game over.

Yes the use of premium quality bullets is a foregone conclusion and should not even be a point of discussion, use only the best when dealing with DG, more so if you are the one responsible to save the bacon...

I ques if you had decided on a 500 Jeff or 458 Lott at the time you would have the same confidence in their ability.

Glad the 458 WM has worked out for you and you are happy with it.
 
Firstly, I'd never claim "vast" - all my experience is as a client who's success has come from always following those with the vast experience - my PHs. But what they always tell me is that (as general rule) as long as you can constantly bounce a mug around at 50yds with your 458 that's good enough - so a 2-3" group should see you ok. Remember too, the heart on a cape buffalo is about the size of a grapefruit, and the closer you are to him (and preferably unaware of you), the easier it is to hit it. So for any situation, I'd also advise knowing the POI for your ammunition at ranges from 25 to 100yds: for myself I like to get in around 40-50yds before opening the proceedings.

Placement of that all-important shot is everything, and is dependent on the angle and anatomical landmarks presented to you. So at this moment follow your PH's whispered advice. Using this, while getting on the sticks and sighting in, I'm thinking things a bit further by using those anatomical landmarks on the skin as a guide while visualising I've got a long knitting needle with which to pierce the heart (or whichever of the vitals available). Then placing my sights where the "needle" intersects the animal's skin I squeeze off the shot.

Remember too, that as soon as you've fired - RELOAD!! - and get ready for the follow-up. DON'T stop there to admire your shot!! That's a very good way to lose your buff, and greatly annoy your PH - as he's the one that has to now go get it, AND keep yours and everyone else's butt intact! Remember, there'll be plenty of time to admire your buff later, once it IS dead.

So for practise at the range before you depart on your hunt, train yourself into the habit in taking that first, steady, shot off the sticks and then - as you come out of recoil - work the bolt to chamber another round and get back on target asap. Generally, after the first shot there's far too little time to get back onto the sticks, so your second shot may well have to be freehand.

As a reloader, I've developed a DG load for my rifle and found it is both accurate and performs beautifully. A lot of PHs like a soft on the first round, followed up by solids, but I've hunted with others that like you loaded up with softs only (this prevents "shoot through" if another bull is behind yours), so check with your PH first.

The photo below is clipped footage of one of my Zambian buff, and underscores much of the foregoing. That's it's heart being held in the trackers hands (it's apex, or bottom, pointing towards his feet), and the large hole you can see is the exit wound of a Woodleigh 500ger RNSN projectile. That buff wobbled about 20yds before collapsing, and it was all over.

Hope this helps, and enjoy your journey!! (y)

View attachment 339044
How about a standard sized coffee CAN at 50yds with open sights? I don’t think I could hit a coffee MUG at that distance consistently with open sights? Probably not even with a .22 with open sights? If you miss the heart, you still should take out the lungs? Edit: Come to think of it, how many here could SEE a coffee MUG at 50yds with open sights?
 
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Yes the use of premium quality bullets is a foregone conclusion and should not even be a point of discussion, use only the best when dealing with DG....

I find it very surprising how hunters will scrimp out on using a premium bullet, when by comparison it's probably the least expensive component of a hunt - yet arguably THE pivotal item upon which their success or failure is decided!! (n)
 
375 (which I have) vs 458 (I have a Lott) Here is my story and my opinion: I am 74 and going on my fourth annual Safari to Africa next year, the first three being to RSA for PG. Unfortunately, the Africa hunting (and touring and mission) virus did not infect me until I was in my 70's, but fortunately, it infected my wife at least as badly as she repeatedly asks "Why do we love Africa so much?" In 2020 we will be going to Mozambique for Cape Buffalo (and tour and some mission work) and only God knows if I'll get a fifth Safari. Accordingly, I want this hunt to be as perfect and as memorable as possible. I am staying in shape by continuing to heat our home with firewood I cut and split myself (8 cords a year) and walking 14,000 to 18,000 steps a day, usually while carrying a load. I want to be in shape to hunt buffalo, not just shoot buffalo. To me a buffalo hunt is a hunt in foot, following spoor and getting in close with a double rifle, then making an accurate first shot followed by a second and reloading as quickly as practiced. Red Leg likes his R8 Professional in .375 and I love mine, which I used last year on everything from Blue Wildebeest to Zebra, but for a Cape Buffalo, for me at least, it is a nice Krieghoff double in 470NE.

Good luck and safe travels on your 4th Safari!
 
How about a standard sized coffee CAN at 50yds with open sights? I don’t think I could hit a coffee MUG at that distance consistently with open sights? If you miss the heart, you still should take out the lungs?
Though I strive for the best possible accuracy for that all-important first shot, I suppose if you're happy with what you can do, it'll be fine. Besides you'll be backed up by your PH in any case. Look at the size of the heart I've posted here, that's the size of the target you must strive to consistently hit - if you can do that, you good to go. I haven't experienced a shot purely into the lungs, but IMO your buff may still have enough time to either disappear, or, provide you with a few hairy moments.

Just some thoughts about it - and not knowing any of your circumstances - hitting a coffee can suggests to me possible ammunition, vision, or recoil related issues. Maybe if you worked out a good load that suited your rifle, the accuracy could improve? And/or you may consider mounting a low power fixed or variable scope? But if the recoil is throwing you, it may be wiser to use a different calibre? Again, I'm just thinking out aloud here. (y)
 
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I've seen a ton of videos that show buffalo running after being hit with all sorts of rounds, including a 600 NE. My takeaway from this is that there's no such thing as too much gun for buffalo. The main factor will be what you have and what you're comfortable with as long as it's above the requirements whereever you are.
 
How about a standard sized coffee CAN at 50yds with open sights? I don’t think I could hit a coffee MUG at that distance consistently with open sights? Probably not even with a .22 with open sights? If you miss the heart, you still should take out the lungs? Edit: Come to think of it, how many here could SEE a coffee MUG at 50yds with open sights?

That is why most are better off with a low power scope.....first shot placement is the most important part of hunting DG.
 
I've seen a ton of videos that show buffalo running after being hit with all sorts of rounds, including a 600 NE. My takeaway from this is that there's no such thing as too much gun for buffalo. The main factor will be what you have and what you're comfortable with as long as it's above the requirements whereever you are.

Wrong, there definitely is, a well placed shot using the correct bullet from a 375 H&H will result in a dead buffalo, whereas a shot in the wrong place even from a 700 NE will only result in a pissed off buffalo, the Cape buffalo that is.

There is no substitute for shot placement.
 
RECOIL.... what's that? In the bush I never feel recoil at all... On the range, my 458 is a different story and I don't like to shoot more than 10 x shots in a session.

Very true!! In the heat of the moment on the hunt, nobody feels recoil - but on the sedate range back home? That's an entirely different matter!!
 
Though I strive for the best possible accuracy for that all-important first shot, I suppose if you're happy with what you can do, it'll be fine. Besides you'll be backed up by your PH in any case. Look at the size of the heart I've posted here, that's the size of the target you must strive to consistently hit - if you can do that, you good to go. I haven't experienced a shot purely into the lungs, but IMO your buff may still have enough time to either disappear, or, provide you with a few hairy moments.

Just some thoughts about it - and not knowing any of your circumstances - hitting a coffee can suggests to me possible ammunition, vision, or recoil related issues. Maybe if you worked out a good load that suited your rifle, the accuracy could improve? And/or you may consider mounting a low power fixed or variable scope? But if the recoil is throwing you, it may be wiser to use a different calibre? Again, I'm just thinking out aloud here. (y)
Thanks! I’m thinking the front bead sight will cover (block out) a coffee mug at 50yds? Since the lowest express sight leaf is set for 100yds, it’ll be interesting? I’m always game for a new shooting challenge! Maybe a 50yd “coffee mug” challenge contest after everyones’ ranges open up after the zombie apocalypse virus goes dormant? My range is open, so I might go tomorrow and shoot some more expensive factory WM and Lotts? I’ve been working the mid shift with Tuesday and Wednesday off, so other than sleeping I’ve had no time to reload anything.
 

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Do you have any cull hunts available? 7 days, daily rate plus per animal price?

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