.458B&M / Cutting Edge Bullets / Tracks Across Africa

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Speaking in context Phil, if we assume you are loading with C.E.B's, North Forks, G.S Customs etc and bullets of this "ilk" I agree there is little gained in going any bigger unless you have a specific need, or purpose.

As you know, my own choice was the big Daddy, the .500MDM, and was/am extremely satisfied with the complete rifle/bullet package, but of course unless you need to employ a firearm as back-up in extreme circumstances, or are dealing with Elephant on a daily basis, such a cartridge is really not needed.

Your .458 mated with say the 9.3 would make an awesome all-round, do anything rifle combo for Africa, or anywhere else for that matter.
There is an excellent little 9.3 B&M for sale at the moment from Coyote Wacker who is swapping over to left hand rifles to suit his dominant eye issues.

Regarding V.C's I've been extremely pleased with the performance and handling of my own .500 double, that they manufactured, and in 2014 was able to bring down two buffalo, in separate and isolated incidents, with it at distances in excess of 100yds !!! and i'm no crack shot which says a LOT about the way their guns handle !!!!!! Excellent guns and my only complaint is that it COULD have been another 1/2lb lighter. Otherwise excellent in all respects and can highly recommend a Verney Carron built double.

Much to MM's disappointment, the .458 will be paired with my .375H&H. I will never sell that M70. There are just some rifles you shouldn't let go of and it's one of them. Now it could end up pried out of my hands by one of my sons and likely will be. But if they sell it and I'm still alive, there will be trouble!

 

[Royal27]

That's good enough for me!

I'm not an engineer and have no problem just listening to the experts, meaning people I've grown to trust, most of the time.

 

[PaulT]

Question Phil (or Paul),

I just saw that Beau's hunt is on the B&M site and I saw that he use the 420 grain raptor and the 450 grain solid. I seem to remember you stating you use the 420s as well.

Just curious why the 420 instead of the 470? Obviously the 420 is DEVASTATING!!!! Is it as simple as that? You just don't need anymore and it shoots flatter? Or is there another reason?

I'm new to the .458s as you know and just wouldn't have even thought of using anything other than a 500.

Royal, the C.E.B bullets are made so that the "soft", or Raptor, is simply the Solid version with the center taken out so that they are identical in shape and form so as to shoot to the same point of impact (with only a slight deviation required between the loads for each).

Being constructed without a led core means they are long for caliber and as they are so robust and penetrate so far, and actually function better with the more velocity you apply to them, the actual overall weight becomes less significant that led core bullets and they have been so built to enable loaders to achieve velocities with hand-loads that achieve the best results.

As it was difficult for us all to come to terms with this when Barnes first came out with the X bullet, so it is in this case.

Rest assured, I have personally seen that "little" 420gn .458 traverse 3/4 of the body length of a full grown buffalo bull ! (at about 2250 muzzle velocity).

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

And I would add, I haven't seen the slightest sign of pressure yet with these things. The brass barely changes from firing to firing and the bolts open with ease. Yeah, you can say I'm happy with the rifle/round, now just have to give it a go on big black and ugly.

 

[PaulT]

Royal, I see that both Phil and I posted about the same time, and you may apply both of our answers to your question.

As Phil has rightly pointed out, twist rate has a very definite effect on the terminal performance of a projectile.
Remember that most of our rifles are rifled to stabilize the projectile in the air.
The density of air is quite different to the density of animal flesh and it has been proven, by others FAR more authoritative on this matter than I, that the currently existing rates of barrel twist are inadequate for overcoming bullet yaw and tumbling in animal tissue.
This is a very complex and detailed subject and I would be happy to provide you with references for the individuals who have been researching these principals for quite some time.

To "dumb-it-down" (no offence intended) and speed up my answer to you the penetration qualities of these projectiles is governed by;
1.....Nose Profile
2.....Meplat Size in Percentage of Caliber
3.....Radius Edge Of Meplat
4.....Nose Projection in Front of First band.
5.....Construction & Material
6.....Velocity
7.....Twist Rate
8.....Sectional Density

When the above characteristics have been adequately addressed the overall weight of the projectile is not a significant ingredient.

 

[Royal27]

To "dumb-it-down" (no offence intended)

When trying to get me to understand subjects of this nature please not only dumb it down, but type very slowly.

An engineer I am not, nor would I have made a good one!!! I'm much more of a "that looks purdy close" kind of a guy and know much more about how to use duct tape than how to make exact tolerances.

Fascinating none the less...

 

[Daga Boy]

Hi guys, I have never even heard of this cartridge; however as its manufactured from an RUM case I would think it should be very similar to the .458 African (based on a .404 case). What sort of velocities do you get with DG class bullets (say 480gr conventional or 450gr monolthics)?

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Hi guys, I have never even heard of this cartridge; however as its manufactured from an RUM case I would think it should be very similar to the .458 African (based on a .404 case). What sort of velocities do you get with DG class bullets (say 480gr conventional or 450gr monolthics)?

It's been awhile since I chrono'd any loads. But the .458B&M will achieve velocities between .458 Win and .458 Lott.

 

[mdwest]

School me some more on the B&M @PHOENIX PHIL

I've reached out to SSK to ask about a WSM conversion in either .416 or .458 B&M.

They seem a bit pricey ($700 to mount and chamber a barrel only.. if you want anything else done (sights, finish applied, etc.. the cost goes up from there)..

Is there anyone else doing these conversions? Or is SSK the sole source for getting the work done? Who did your conversion?

Also.. what about dies, brass, etc? I did some pretty lengthy googling and found exactly 1 set of dies available for a .416 B&M.. they are in the UK and the seller wanted 268 pounds for them..

Im guessing B&M or SSK can provide dies.. I've reached out to SSK and asked, but havent heard back from them yet (I just asked a couple of hours ago.. they havent had time to respond..)..

I know SSK does great work.. Ive got a buddy that has one of their TC Contenders that is truly a special gun.. Im just wondering what, if any other, options are out there..

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

School me some more on the B&M

I've reached out to SSK to ask about a WSM conversion in either .416 or .458 B&M.

They seem a bit pricey ($700 to mount and chamber a barrel only.. if you want anything else done (sights, finish applied, etc.. the cost goes up from there)..

Is there anyone else doing these conversions? Or is SSK the sole source for getting the work done? Who did your conversion?

Also.. what about dies, brass, etc? I did some pretty lengthy googling and found exactly 1 set of dies available for a .416 B&M.. they are in the UK and the seller wanted 268 pounds for them..

Im guessing B&M or SSK can provide dies.. I've reached out to SSK and asked, but havent heard back from them yet (I just asked a couple of hours ago.. they havent had time to respond..)..

I know SSK does great work.. Ive got a buddy that has one of their TC Contenders that is truly a special gun.. Im just wondering what, if any other, options are out there..

@PaulT can tell you at least as much as I know and likely more. The long story hopefully made short is a gentleman by the name of Michael McCourry got it in his head after a close encounter with a hippo on land that a short barreled and lighter DG rifle would have advantages over the typical 24" +/-, 9lb +/- rifle that is typical to standard DG calibers. So after returning from a hunt he got to tinkering.

While the WSM calibers are quite often derided, there is one undeniable fact. A shorter/fatter cartridge results in a more efficient powder burn. By this I mean you can get similar velocity in a shorter/fatter case with less powder than a longer/skinnier case. This is true of the WSM calibers, but it takes on a whole different meaning in the larger bores.

It was based on this idea that Michael started experimenting. What he also came to find out is that you can use much faster burning powders, and in fact you need to. You will see that all of the B&M calibers use very fast burning powders, yet pressure levels seem to be very reasonable as I've pointed out above in this thread.

To answer your questions:

1) Dies - can be ordered from Hornady. You will have to call them as this is considered a special order. Mine came with my rifle which I bought used from a friend of Michael's. But I'm quite certain you will not need to spend anywhere near the dollar equivalent of 268 pounds.

2) I believe SSK is the only provider of barrels. It's a special order, so I can see why they're a bit pricey. Not many calls for an 18-20 inch .458. However I'm not positive on my answer as again I bought mine already made.

3) Brass - this is the somewhat tricky part. You start with .300RUM brass, you can also use .375RUM brass. That brass needs to be cut to 2.24". You can certainly do this with a DREMEL tool, but I wouldn't recommend it. A proper saw to get perpendicular cuts is called for. After being cut then it is a simple matter of running the cut brass up into the sizing die which will form the neck for you. I say this is tricky as getting RUM brass is now a challenge. But I know you can get it in Nosler's brass, but it is a bit pricy. I have over time developed a nice stash that should last a long time. On this note, if you do one of these rifles, have .300RUM / .458B&M stamped on the barrel. If for some reason someone checks your brass against the caliber, this will get you through.

I'm going to PM you Michael's phone number. If he doesn't answer please leave him a message and mention that I sent you his way. Michael is a great gent and loves to help people out with these B&M rifles. Neither he or myself get any compensation for this as Michael does not do this for a business.

He has several B&M calibers that he developed. But I do believe the .458 version is his favorite and I'm inclined to agree. If I had any other, I'd have what he calls the .500MDM. But it's a bit longer of a case, designed more for a true stopping rifle. I think @PaulT still has one. I love my .458B&M however. I can load it with 260gr bullets from CEB that fly at 2900fps and are just devastating on PG or any of the big bullets for DG. If it means anything to you, I have yet to see a PH that didn't give it a thumbs up after handling it.

If you do go down this route, I highly recommend you get one of the Accurate Innovation stocks. Their bedding system is key to distributing the recoil and making these rifles manageable. An 8lb / 18" barrel in the .458B&M without that bedding system could be quite hard on your shoulder and perhaps that much more difficult to keep a hold of.[/USER]

 

[mdwest]

Awesome reply @PHOENIX PHIL ! Thanks! Lots of information in there to digest.

Certainly an interesting concept.. and I have a WSM action laying around begging to be used for something... This might just be the ticket..

Thanks again!

 

[PaulT]

Dave.
If you do have any further interest I urge you to contact Michael.

I know that recently he has been clearing a number of rifles from his personal collection for various legitimate reasons.
He may even have a ready built .458 B&M ready to go.

I also know that for a long time Michael held a number of spare sets of dies for a number of his cartridges so as to save people the lead time of waiting for Hornady to make them a set.
Again, he may have a spare set laying around.

Unlike Phil I have not owned my own .458 B&M, instead I have the .500 MDM which is a tremendous cartridge.

Why go to these wildcats ?, well if you have the ability to be open minded and objective enough to evaluate what you want from a fighting rifle you will begin to see the attraction.

In the case of the .458 B&M you are able to carry the ballistics of a .458 Lott in a platform which is MUCH shorter and MUCH lighter then the bigger cartridge.
Does that make such a big difference.
Probably not on a once in a lifetime hunt.
Day to day, week after week then yes it does.

In that once in a lifetime occurance, such as when in thick bush Mike needed to shoot an Elephant from almost underneath it whilst it was trying to make a stain out of him, then yes it does.

Personally, I got sick of carrying 9lb - 10lb+ rifles each day as a buffalo hunting guide.
My .500 MDM weighs just over 8lbs and hits like a freight train.

Only SSK will build B&M rifles as they are the only one's that Mike trusts to build them correctly for 100% feed and function.

Also, the stocks being built for these rifles by Accurate Innovations are awesome. Rigid, accurate, no cross-bolts required, simply awesome.

They will be lowering me 8' down someday and in that casket will be my .500 MDM

 

[AZDAVE]

Good morning. Also being an engineer and found a like minded chap in @PHOENIX PHIL we talked about his 458B&M and doubles on several occasions. I now own a 458B&M as my alaska rifle and he has a double rifle. Still trying to figure out how we can wind up in the same camp at the same time somewhere in the world

The B&M and CEB combo is a good one. I keep looking at the 9.3 version and so far I have resisted.